Red Nose Revolution: Clowning as a Path to Liberation

In this episode of The Grace Space, I'm joined by artist, clown, teacher, and explorer of consciousness Annie Newton (also known as Gurmukh Nam) for a conversation that opens sideways rather than resolves neatly.

Annie is a creator in the truest sense — a theatre-maker, kundalini yoga teacher, and clown who understands truth through the body, play, and presence. In this rich and deeply human exchange, Annie shares how clowning becomes a spiritual practice: a way of staying with failure, inhabiting vulnerability, and discovering joy where we least expect it.

Together, we explore:

• Why the red nose is “the smallest mask in the world”
• How staying with the problem opens creativity and freedom
• Why humor and joy are radical acts in a controlled world
• Clowning as preparation for death — and for living fully
• What Annie discovered during seven days in total darkness
• How intention transforms fear into liberation

This is a conversation about authenticity, embodiment, and remembering how to be human — not by becoming more polished, but by becoming more real. If you’ve been craving sincerity, laughter, depth, and permission to drop the mask, this episode is an invitation.

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Read the blog post 

Gurmukh Annie is a long-limbed clown, puppeteer, and Kundalini Yoga teacher, born in Toronto (Canada) yet somehow washed up in the French Alps. A graduate of the very serious Jacques Lecoq International Theatre School (Paris,France) and an even more serious theatre conservatory in Toronto (George Brown Theatre School), she now creates delightfully absurd and slightly dark theatre/clown performances. She teaches theatre, voice/speech, kundalini yoga, and the art of clowning to humans of all ages — adults, beginners, experts, skeptics, the overly serious… and even those who swear they’re “not funny.” She is the co-founder of the Franco-Norwegian company Théâtre Amok and the co-creator of the show THE VOID, nominated at the Stockholm Fringe Festival (Best Emerging Artist, Best Comedy Show). She is currently working on her new, equally absurd, puppet show, Seggs Ed with Lilith... To work with Annie, get in touch here: https://linktr.ee/gurmukhnam

Transcript

Claire 0:03

Welcome to the Grace Space, a transmission for the sovereign soul.

Annie 0:23

I think I have a an eagerness and a desire to transform and to know myself. And this is such a big desire. And it comes from this curiosity. I think it's maybe it's from the same energy of the of the clown. I'm like, wow, I want to do that. That's cool. I don't know what's gonna happen. And I I love going towards my fear. And I mean, uh, I and I have been scared of the dark. I mean, I think it is a fear that's quite natural and innate in humans. Like children, I'm most children, I know I as a kid I was terrified of the dark. And so we're we're afraid of I think we're afraid of what we can't see. Um we're afraid of the unknown. And I think we're also afraid of that amount of space.

Meet Annie: Adventurer Of Consciousness

Clown Funeral And Ritual Of The Nose

Claire 1:25

Hey everyone, real quick before we begin, if this content matters to you, you're warmly invited to subscribe to this channel, to like this video, to leave a comment, or all three. I read all the comments, and your engagement is really important because when you engage, it tells YouTube to push this content out to more people who would find value in it. Now that I understand this, I engage a lot more with the channels that are important to me because I know it really matters. Thanks for listening. Here we go. Today in the Grace space, I have the joy of welcoming somebody that I've known and loved for much of her life. But I want to introduce her to you, not through the lens of our shared history uh and through watching her grow up, but through the brilliance of who she is. Annie Newton, also known as Gurmuknam, is one of those rare souls who came in with a kind of built-in freedom. She is an adventurer of consciousness. She's a uh truth revealer through play. She's a creator, a real creator who understands the world by inhabiting it with her whole body. And uh she's a theater maker. She's a clown in the highest spiritual sense, uh, a kundalini yogi, a teacher of presence, uh, a woman who also recently spent seven days in total darkness just to see what she might find on the other side of that. I've witnessed Annie's evolution from childhood into the extraordinary artist and sovereign being that she is now. And while our paths have crossed and intertwined at moments, hers is unmistakably her own, totally original, unpredictable, courageous, full of mischief and revelation. What I love most about Annie is that she brings coherence to chaos through innocence and playfulness. She brings depth to joy through embodiment. She invites us to meet life sideways, diagonally, playfully, in ways that that soften uh us, soften the rigid ways that we can sometimes be stuck in. So today she's joining me for a conversation about creation, uh, about the art of unmasking and what she discovered living alone in complete darkness, and many other things that uh she's gonna share with us today. It's an honor to share her with you. Let's jump in. Tell me, what is a clown funeral?

Annie 4:25

Well, one of my students passed away um last week, and uh so I and I had been with her for I think more than four years. We had I had been teaching her regularly, and we created this group. It was so nice. It was it was all the way through COVID. Uh it was a group of uh seniors from Canada, and we met every week, and uh yeah, I didn't realize how much of a source of joy it was for her. I mean, I I knew, but I didn't realize too at what point. And uh one of my students was saying that uh that's how she introduced herself, actually, was uh yeah, I'm an I'm a clown. And uh it was a source of of creativity and pride at at the end of her life. So it was quite uh yeah, it was quite moving to he to read her obituary and to see that that was like that was you know, it's like the fact that she was a clown was frontline. And um Yeah, and and to it was really beautiful group that we created. So I got them all to come on Zoom and uh we did a clown funeral.

Claire 5:44

Amazing. So how is a clown funeral different from a regular funeral? Probably in every way.

What Makes A Great Clown

Annie 5:50

I don't know. I just was like, oh, let's just put on the nose. So we all put on the nose, and I have a sort of ritual that I I uh get my students to do to call on the energy of the clown, because I really think it's a it's kind of like a spirit that we call, it's part of us, but it's something that we call upon. And so I brought them through this ritual. We put on the noses, and then um, and then I just got them to to make an offering as a clown. And uh my offer, I also I also did it. I just it's really simple stuff, you know. I just uh I just did this, and but it was it was upside down, you know. It was upside down, and then um so I just got them all to do an offering and they're clowns, and then we made a a ritual, and then they danced, and it was full of joy. Wow, yeah, and um she was such a super she was such a super clown. Like yeah. What makes a what makes a great clown? I think uh being fully authentic, uh listening, uh taking pleasure, really fully enjoying, um and exploiting uh your your faults as much as your talents. I love that.

Claire 7:28

And tell us about the nose. What does the nose do? Because it's just a little piece of plastic, right? People people look at that thing and they're like, well, what is that's just a piece of plastic.

The Nose As Smallest Mask

Annie 7:39

Yes, and I I think this is what's so important is that it's just a please piece of plastic. Um there's no it's something that's super sacred. So uh there's a whole thing that I have the nose here. There's a uh whole set of rules that go around with this piece of plastic. One is that you put it on with your back towards the audience. Um, because that was like when you turn around, then you're you make the separation between when you're in the clown energy and when you're just in a daily life with your own personality masks. Um so you turn you put it on with your back to the audience, and you also don't touch the nose, because as soon as you touch it when it's on your face, it breaks the illusion. It's like it's really magic. There is a space that is created when the nose is put on. And if you touch the nose, it's like it cracks the space. And so you you don't touch it. Um and it is the smallest mask in the world. It's a mask. I put on the mask so that we don't have to wear all of our other masks. Um and I usually actually I start um when I teach, I I do the first part of the class usually without nose. Um and even when I yeah, when I so some teachers they don't use nose at all. I I quite like using the nose. Um but uh I always introduce it quite late because uh I think it's important to feel the clown energy before you put on the mask. We have a lot of connotations about what a clown is, and so often if you just put on the the nose right away, the people start to play at the clown instead of finding their own clown. And so, and when I teach, I focus a lot on the body and bringing in the clown energy into the body and moving and letting yourself be moved by the clown, developing your own walk. Um uh because this helps people come into their bodies and let their physicality speak for them more than uh their mind. It helps it helps to let go of the mind. Not because as soon as we start to think about trying to be funny, it's over. So we just basically, it's all of the exercises as much as you can to try and trick your mind. So you're not trying to be funny, but you're trying to do something else. And I had um I had a clown teacher once tell me, okay, so if you come on and you don't know what to do, either just try to be beautiful or try to be really good. Don't try to be funny, try to be beautiful or really good, and it's sure that you will not, it's sure you will fuck up. Well, as long as you're trying, yeah, then you're in good hands. But you need to be trying to do something, and so uh it's better to focus on trying to be beautiful or or to be good at something. Come on and try to be really good at at contemporary dance, but earnestly. Is one of the pillars. You need to actually try, not play at trying, like, oh uh, I'm trying, but I'm also failing. Like we can see it from miles away if you're not honest.

Claire 11:09

Uh-huh. I love this. So, what is the because you know, it took me a while to get involved with clown with you, right? Not that I didn't want to, I just, you know.

Annie 11:22

I forgot about it. Of course. You took one of my classes.

Getting Out Of The Mind And Into Body

Claire 11:25

That was super more than one. More than one. Um, and you know, I mean, when I was at Juilliard, we had we had a semester of clown, right? Um, but there's obviously something really um sacred and profound about about clown. And and I'm really interested in what I mean, I think you've already touched on it a bit, but I'd like to go a little deeper into that. Like, why why do we need to clown? What what what what's what's what's happening there?

Staying With The Problem And Real Failure

Annie 12:01

Oh my god, so many reasons. Um okay, so I think one is that the the clown it it's a way to go into our shadows, and uh the parts of ourselves that we hide normally are faults. Uh and when we go into the clown, uh we use our fault, they're gold. You know, your your shyness, your anger, your stupidity, the parts of ourselves we've we our failure, uh they become gold. Um, you know, normally in daily life, you you have a problem in in life and uh you try to fix it as quickly as possible without anybody knowing that there's a problem. That's what we do as humans. And clown, no, clowning, when you find a problem, you stay in the problem as long as possible. A good clown can stay in a problem for 20 minutes, one problem, 20 minutes. A bad clown has like 60 problems and and gives up or solves them immediately. No, boring, boring. We want to PC the struggle and the pleasure in the struggle is like how can you find how can you find the crux, the struggle of the problem, and and you stay in it? You know, there's uh there's quite a famous uh clown turn, the guy who's stuck in a chair. You know, it's a a uh good gag. And like that's a that's a good test. How long can you stay stuck in a chair? It's not easy. It's not easy to solve the to not solve the problem. We just want people to go away because it's our nature, you know, in society. And so this this is there's two things about this. One is that you um are able to accept yourself as totally stupid in front of people, and it's a practice. How stupid can I be in front of everybody? And honestly stupid, not playing stupid, because that's just another thing. Um so that's one thing, is like, can I really sit in my own idiocy and revel in it? You know. Um and the other thing is when we stay in a problem, instead of immediately finding solutions, there's really a lot of creativity that comes out of it because we find other ingenious ways to solve the problem. Um I have a classic turn, a classic uh exercise that I that I give students. There's an umbrella, a coat, you have a you have a coat strung over your uh arm, you have an umbrella, and you have a suitcase. You can't put any of the objects on the ground, and you need to open the umbrella and put on the coat uh without without putting anything or dropping anything. And you can't have two objects in your hand at the same time. So you can't just put the umbrella in the hand with the suitcase. So it's a great problem. And you can just sit even without moving, you can sit in just the problem of looking at the coat, the umbrella and the suitcase, and being totally lost. You you can just think about how you're gonna solve this impossible task. And already that that is is so um it's it's uh soulager. Um uh it's a relief. A relief for the audience to see a person owning that they're in total struggle and taking in the time to to be in the impossibility of this of the of the moment. Because we all find these impossibilities in our lives all the time.

Claire 15:57

And I I want to go back to what you said about um, you know, being willing to look stupid, because that's the thing, right? Like as you say, we're always trying to recover from uh impossibilities. We're always trying to recover from mistakes, we're always trying to look good, put on a brave face, you know, not show our vulnerability, not show our stupidity, not show, you know, and and I saw a video recently. Somebody was sitting in a coffee shop and had the camera, their their phone trained on the sidewalk where there was a a place in the sidewalk where it was uneven, and like every single person who came by tripped over it. And and and and like every single trip, you you you feel the person, like that moment where they're like, oh no, I'm about to look bad, I'm about to, I've lost control, you know, and the person sitting with the camera is capturing every every trip as the as people go by. And and you, when you're watching it, or at least me, laughing my ass off because I think we all want to see that. We want, we crave that moment where we don't have control. And if you're afraid to lose, to let go of control yourself, it's either going to be super uncomfortable for you to watch that kind of thing, or you're gonna love it because you you need to blow off some steam yourself, you know?

Realness, Tripping, And Authentic Idiocy

Annie 17:17

Yeah, it's exactly this. I think clowns, they're on the edge of of this, because you're on the edge of really losing control. Um, and how much you can can let go and let your let like I was saying, let your body speak. Let how can I let go of the mind and follow my impulse? I the whole first part of of when I train clowns is just trying to connect to what even is an impulse. When am I faking it and when am I not faking it? There's one uh exercise I do is I just get them to walk around the room and stop and and then and then start walking again. And when is it you that decides when to start and stop? Or when is it your mind deciding to stop? And and once you start to realize how much our mind decides for us, oh, this is everyone else is stopping now. This is probably when I'm supposed to start. But when is actually my impulse, my d my true authentic impulse to stop? Um and so the the clown is on this on this edge of being out of control. And also to, it's it's a kind of a paradox because you also become a master at failure, which is an oxymoron. You know, like in clown school, you learn how to trip. This is like you need to, as a clown, you need to know how to trip. It's hilarious. Tripping is the funniest thing on the planet, next to like pooping, you know. It's like um uh so you you you master the these uh these failures and you use them to make people laugh. But I think what people crave and what and just to go back to your your story about you know these people tripping and how much we love to watch people trip, I think it's also because we we see a moment of humanity, it's like a a private moment of humanity um that's real, and especially now we crave realness like nobody's business.

Claire 19:21

So true.

Precision, Letting Go, And Audience Truth

Annie 19:23

I mean, especially with um I'm very fascinated by AI and uh a clown friend of mine, Charlotte. Um we we developed this term uh instead of uh instead of what what's the uh uh AI is stands for um artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence, that's what it stands for. Um so we created uh another uh another definition for AI, which is authentic idiocy. combating against this uh yeah our uh this uh fakeness really uh and i think the more the more that we the more the the that this uh artificial element um comes into our lives the more we crave spaces of realness and and that's what clowning is for me i mean i have such a host of stories of these moments of just real true humanity it's just insanely beautiful where you can see the also the grace that comes into a scene because you're not in control you there's always you plan perfectly okay I have my this is the way that my scene is gonna go and I have this planned and you rehearse it perfectly five million times and you go here and you rehearse your beats because precision is important in clowning especially when you're a performer and you're not just improvising you know there's there's different steps you go through the just finding your own clown but then there's also the step of of performing and and and that is really a lot of precision. And so you go through it and you you you master you master all your tricks. And then when you get on stage you have to let go completely like you have to drop you you read your script behind scenes okay I go to stage left and then I spill water on myself and then I spill water on the floor and then I trip on the you know I read it all. And then you drop your script and you go out there and you're open to whatever happens. And this is so beautiful because you know the the clown is so sensitive and it cannot lie. And so if you hear something you have to you notice it. If someone comes in late you notice them it's you you there there's no fourth wall. Every night is different you're the it's the audience that also decides if something's not working you know it doesn't work every night. If if there's a joke that doesn't work you have to accept that you have to accept the flop of and and also do but this works every night why why isn't it working this night this this this this joke I I had it perfectly down. And so you know to be in this confusion trying it again but it's supposed to work you know like how can I oil this joke and it must be rusty you know to be in the honesty of this um because not every not every every audience is gonna laugh the same way. You don't know who's gonna maybe you do the show for one person.

Claire 22:32

And so um you take in what's there in the moment and that's part of the grace and the sort of uh divine alignment that comes into when you when you perform as a clown of uh of accepting the gifts because you have to see it as a gift when there is when you mess up or when there's not a laugh it's a gift um if there's a person that comes late they're your best friend uh that that's material for you you know um you know maybe you have a a gag you're you you're supposed to have smoke come out of your hand and the machine doesn't work shit my whole show is based on this it's a gift it's a gift now a whole world of possibility is open to me how am I gonna get out of the shit well I mean this is like such an amazing metaphor for life right I mean if if we could just treat everything that was unexpected and not what it was supposed to be as a gift how different would things be for us you know I mean that's that's an obvious parallel do you think people change when they learn clown do you think they change in life too 100% I mean yeah I mean I know I changed completely because you get you get you accept your failures you accept the parts of yourselves that normally you hate um you get comfortable being in front of people looking people in the eye um you get you get you also flexible listen you your sense of listening starts to increase uh you take in your environment I mean that I think is I think that's probably the most marking is that people start to see the world differently and their situations differently.

Life As Gift When Things Go Wrong

Annie 24:31

Um you know what when I part of the ritual that I do to get to get people into clown I get them to bring in the the spirit of the clown and then I get them to put on the nose and and then I get them to open their eyes and look at the room as if they have never been in this room before. And sometimes I'm teaching on Zoom so you know they're in their bedroom. It's the thing they they see every day or in their kitchen or whatever. Okay but now you see it as if you'd never seen it before and go explore it now and just just be amazed. Just and be more amazed at every single detail that you notice or go outside uh and I sometimes I I'll take them outside and you you in clown discover the world and it's like putting on on new eyes you you when you look at the world over top of this little hill that is this little red plastic hill it really changes everything. And so you start to see the humor and the possibility also in life everything becomes a possibility and um I often I often use this you know I I think the the thing I like about the nose is that uh it's sort of like a trigger. I can put it on and it's immediately I I I can connect again to this sense of wonder and innocence. And so I I really like using the nose not not all teachers um use it but I think um it it puts me in that that space right away uh and then you really find magic magical things to play with life becomes like a a playground and you know remember yeah I I use it a lot like I I put it one time I got really tired I was walking the Camino the Compac de Compostela and I just I my feet were sore as hell and I was not wanting to walk anymore and I just put on the nose and I had a ton of energy and I kept on walking and I saw things I might not have noticed uh and and and also yeah like I I I also was in the garden with uh the nose and we were picking up beets we were harvesting the beets and I just put the I put I put on the nose and then I put a beat between my legs and I had this whole thing with a beat and being my penis and it just was it was hilarious. And so you find you you find ways to to find absolute stupidity in in your circumstances and it makes life so great.

Claire 27:16

Well it sounds too like you know it's it's what I would what I would call a permission slip you know the nose it it's somehow it it allows us to like transcend our habitual persona. And you know it's amazing to me how you can go from because the the uh the 10 days of Camino walking that I did I remember how much my feet hurt and um it's amazing that you can go from like real physical pain to no more pain because you put the nose on you know there's something amazing that's happening there.

Seeing The World Anew Through Clown

Annie 27:59

Yeah I had no more pain in my my blue I had no more blisters yeah like how do you you're transcending something there it's it's quite remarkable yeah and I I think it also has to do with this idea of pleasure you know is that that's that's what's most important and where you have pleasure if we go back to the the clown uh in a scenario of being on on stage with the audience when you have pleasure the audience has pleasure and find your pleasure and then my one of my teachers was like you come on and you get yourself off one of the clown rules is you have to get yourself off that's John Turner he's Canadian teacher my first one he was awesome um and uh I think that that's really it's because when when you have pleasure the audience has pleasure and how you can how you can share that with the audience as and and and transcend even the limits of that pleasure because we don't allow ourselves really the full expanse of emotion and I think that that's also what the clown teaches us is how to how to fully live life like uber live it um how if you're sad like be sad if you're angry be angry but take pleasure in it like how can you how can you be so sad and love being sad? How can you have your you know your heart is broken and you take it out of your chest and you squeeze all the blood out of it and you put it on the floor and you know that there's how can you get you create such um such a a drama and a a pleasure of of the ridiculousness of life and there's this one exercise also that we do where you know I I get people to go through the emotions and you start at a one and then you go to 10 and then you go to 11 and then you go to 12 and then you go to 14. So you do you think it's just one to 10 and then you go past and at a certain point it comes, you know, around five or six people are actually sad. And then you start to augment it and people they they start to have they first of all they don't even know like what is an eight in sadness like what does that even mean what is a 10 okay what a 13 in sadness but how can that even exist?

Claire 30:32

Your mind explodes so um then it becomes hilarious because in that exaggeration it's great and uh yeah you you find the pleasure in you find the pleasure in the emotion and also how to um one of one of the things as well is often when we have sadness or anger or big emotions or or even pleasure um or happiness you know it's like we we close off we sat we're sad we cover our face we we hunch our shoulders we make ourselves small but how can you be absolutely sad and completely and open open even more and more and more and more and be totally sad and be with the audience and keep your eyes open that's like the one thing I say I think all the time in my clown class is eyes eyes open look at us look at us hey over here look at me because that's so amazing though that moment of I'm just imagining I'm I'm feeling it in my own body as you're describing it right like if I were to share that sadness and keep opening up to it opening up to it opening up to it you know expanding the sadness and not hiding it right because like as you say that's our tendency right is we we keep it away from people but like I mean that would go for any emotion right but like sudden at one point you're gonna pop the bubble of sadness it's like it transforms into something else it becomes like ecstasy or bliss or a total surrender and you would just disappear I mean that's profound.

Pleasure, Emotion, And Going Beyond Ten

Playing Sadness To Find Freedom

Annie 32:07

Yeah and then and then you know almost like something becomes its opposite yeah they they all exist that the the the umbrella of pleasure allows all of them to exist in their opposites at the same time and you know if you if you are genuinely sad I mean this happened to me uh uh in the summertime I was in crisis so depressed and I pulled a I pulled an angel card for a guidance and it was like the Buddha the smiling Buddha or something you know uh what is it like yeah like laughing joy I think the card was joy and I was like fuck you you know but then then I put on the nose and I did the whole scenario and then it's hilarious because you can you know you can be sad with the nose and you realize how pathetic you are but in a beautiful way but really to play the this pathos and this uh oh I my heart's broken and yeah I just got dumped or I have no you can see the character that you play in life when you put the nose on in a way it's like it exposes the part of you that you believe is you that you're identified with but actually isn't you and that layer kind of comes away yeah it separates it you play you play it and then because you are consciously playing it you can separate from it if you are it if I am sad I can't I can't separate it from but if I play the sadness it's awesome I mean all the actors you want the like you want the the dramatic roles it's awesome when we're when you're like you want the roles that allow you to cry it's awesome it's cathartic and it's the same it's like when we can go into that and and play the sadness or play the the the victim if we can play the victim then we are no longer victim of our lives because we can't see ourselves it allows for us to to see ourselves clearly yeah so I have a question um do you do you do we do we have m more than one clown in us or is there like a predominant energy that is your clown or does it depend on the person? Yeah it's a good question so I think different clown teachers would would have their own opinions on this um I mean each individual is unique and so you're gonna have your unique clown it comes along with just who you are um and it's uh it's quite a magic moment especially when I'm working with beginners and they put on the nose for the first time and the clown is born and you're like oh my god and it's like a part of them that's totally hidden comes out and it's it's honestly like people don't really it's quite intimate um and it's a privilege really to be able to be witness to that moment uh a totally beautiful innocent uh and something super super true a part of a part of um yeah an innocent part of of this person um so to answer your question I think we yes we have our own individual clown but and some yeah and we have our own tendencies you know like some of my students they they they come out and just automatically it's more natural to play a more high status clown than a low status clown there there are are tendencies that we is great and it's sometimes really beautiful to switch these tendencies so to when you are used to being a high status clown then you come out as a low status clown and you see what happens. So it's the way to also explore different facets of your personality and your sphere of creativity. You know you can play different characters in the spirit like I I think of the clown energy as an energy that comes and inhabits us and we allow it to inhabit us. That's how I I call on when when I get people to go into clown I I call on a red buzzing energy that comes from the earth and it comes to inhabit the feet and then it starts to inhabit the whole body and I I take them through this this it's like a buzzing red energy. What did I say in French? It's rouge pétillon rouge pétillon yeah sparkling red um yeah and so there is this um this there's a calling on this energy but of course you have different clowns in different circumstances you know I have one clown that's a construction worker I have one clown that's an opera singer um but there's an essence of me that that stays in that um uh yeah and and I have one uh clown of course that's a a guru um keeps me humble uh and uh yeah and and so when I first started uh clowning one of the one of the ways that I was taught and it's um it's a method that was created by Richard Pachenko um and my teacher studied with Richard Pachenko his name is John Turner and he led me through a two-week um introduction to clown which was called Baby Clown and it was on Manitoulin Island it was probably still the best two weeks of my entire life I was in love I was in love I was love for two weeks I was love um and it was very profound and we used um the directions and masks so each uh we made six masks north south east west above above below below so we had at the end six masks we paint we painted them paper mache all of that and then from the mask we created a clown persona we we um there was a a huge oh it was such an amazing playground there was like seven bags of clothing and we could dress our clowns and then we had to perform um a little a little skit you know for two minutes based on that mask so it was an incarnation of that mask that we then translated to the clown and then at the end we went through uh a birthing yeah a birth he like created the vagina and everything went through the birthing canal I mean we take things seriously in clown if you want to have a birth you have to go for it no it's like this Uber realism where it's like if you're gonna do a rebirth do a rebirth. And then uh so yeah and there was more to that process but to explain it like that um uh then you were we're led through this birthing process where all of these six directions started to mix and uh um meld and fuse and you become in the middle you find your clown. So this is how I understood and took away from it is You have this sphere of creativity, all of these different facets of yourself. And in the middle, you have your clown. And you can, you know, you can access sometimes your mask three. You need it to create a certain piece. So you call on that energy and you can go back even to your mask. I mean, I still have all my masks and stuff like this. But it was a very organic way of also broadening your creative sphere and not just thinking, oh, you know, I have I have some of my students there like, well, maybe my clown is sad. No, your clown's not just sad. Your clown is everything, can be everything. Um, and it's important not to limit yourself, I think, in clown or limit like, oh, with my clown is like this or like that. I think one thing um uh that can be very uh opening and and help to define or or um go deeper into your clown is asking your clown what it loves. You know, putting on the nose and being okay, what what do I love? Different than what you love, you know. It's maybe you're a clown. I had one student, she'd start she was in love with plants when she was in clown. Like in love with plants. She took all the plants, she collected all the plants in her house, and then she was super happy and she took so much pleasure in all of her plants and watering her plants. Never would would even think, like, not not to this level in in real life, would she have taken care of her plants? But this is uh, you know, what where can I find a sparkle inside and then and then uh augment and exaggerate this sparkle and see what lies in that small impulse of joy? Yeah, yeah.

One Clown Or Many Essences

Claire 42:04

I'm I'm laughing because I'm thinking about my clown. Now, granted, I have limited experience with clowning, but every time that I've engaged uh in clown, the same energy comes up. And when you were saying, you know, what would your what would your clown love? Like what does it want to do and explore to the nth degree? I had this image of my belly button because my clown always wants to show her belly button, and it thinks that her belly button is the most amazing show-off thing. And I just imagined, like, you know, drawing a face around my belly button and making its mouth move and like doing all stuff. And I've already started laughing in my own imagination, and I'm thinking, what is that? Why does that bring me joy? Like, why why do I enjoy that? I don't know.

Annie 42:58

Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. You need to ask, it's just awesome. And also, like when you find that that's the other thing, it's like, and don't stop there. So when you find like, okay, my clown loves my belly button, or my clown loves plants, okay. Now forget it. Now what do I love? And the next day can be totally different. It the the past does not exist, neither does the future. So, what now in this moment do I love? Um, because again, we have so many ways of keeping ourselves in boxes, and so the what I'm constantly questioning in my teaching is is like, how can I constantly find ways to uh navigate and avoid the box? How can I always be finding the door? Oh, there's a new space. Oh, there's a new space. Um and and it's very interesting because we we find safety in the boxes. It's safe to say, you know, my my clown's always sad, because then when I come out and I'm in front of the audience, I'm not in the unknown. Right. If I came out and really had no idea what I was doing, I have to stand there in the unknown, in front of everybody with my eyes open, and I'm not allowed to hide. Like I can't hide. I'm there, I'm naked in the unknown. And this, our ego, it's the last thing that our ego wants to do is to be stupid, unknown, and naked in front of people.

Claire 44:41

Well, you just exposed it right there. I mean, that's what everybody would rather die, yes, than, you know, like avoid that at all cost.

Annie 44:50

Yeah, I I think clowning is a fantastic preparation for death.

Claire 44:55

Ah.

Annie 44:58

And it's really a a tool for for transformation, I think.

Claire 45:03

Yeah, yeah. And when you're talking about death, you're not just you're not talking about necessarily physical death. You're talking about the you know, death of your attachment to your identity that's so perfectly crafted.

Annie 45:16

And I mean, either, either. It can be your your ego death or the real life death. I mean, there's no no difference, but can you imagine, like, let's say you are close to dying, and you can put on the nose and be so curious about that passage. You can put on the nose and allow the wonder to come in to this transition. You can close your eyes and and and be in the darkness, the unknown, and and see it as a playground.

Claire 45:52

So can we uh sounds like a pretty good segue. I would love for you to talk about your recent experience of spending seven days in total, seven days and nights in total darkness.

Annie 46:04

Yes. Well, I recommend it to all.

Claire 46:07

So, what was the impulse? Why would you do something like that? I think many people would ask that question, like, well, why would you want to do that?

Masks, Directions, And Birthing The Clown

Annie 46:16

Like, good question, because I was like, as soon as they announced it, I was like, Oh, I need to do it. I didn't even think. There was no thinking of just like, please, I need to do it. There's no question. Um, but uh I think I have uh an eagerness and a desire to transform and to know myself. And this is such a big desire, and it comes from this curiosity. I think it's maybe it's from the same energy of the of the clown of I'm like, wow, I want to do that. That's cool. I don't know what's gonna happen. And I I love going towards my fear, and I mean, uh, I and I have been scared of the dark. I mean, I think it is a fear that's quite natural and innate in humans, like children. I'm most children, I know I as a kid I was terrified of the dark. And so we're we're afraid of I think we're afraid of what we can't see. Um, we're afraid of the unknown. And I think we're also afraid of that amount of space. The space, the infinity of the space is so overwhelming um that it's uh it's something our mind can't comprehend. Um and so I think there's all of these these fears that that go into that. And um yeah, and just going back to to the clowning, I think that's also you can go towards your pleasure and you can also go towards your fear. That's also very interesting. Um I had uh there was one very marking moment uh in one of my my clown trainings where my teacher said walk towards your fear. And you know, everyone was like, What? We were all walking around the room. Walk towards my fear, okay. I walk towards my fear like a good student. And you know, everyone stayed on the edges of the of the of the of the room, you know, they're walking very like good students on the edges of the room. And there was one uh one student, one woman, she walked right in front of my teacher in the middle center of the room and stood there and centered, staged front and center, looking at at the teacher directly in the eyes, open chest. And he was like, Boom, the only one of you that's honest is this one. But I think it's a um it gives you a lot of energy, you know, and you probably can relate to this walking on stage and being in being in front of people and being in the middle of of the of the stage. So you're like to receive all of that energy also from the the public, it's huge. Um, and we're not used to our nervous systems, aren't even used to holding that much energy, but um it's exciting. So I think that it was the impulse to go in is came comes from this curiosity and uh a desire to know the the mystery of the universe and to feel more and to know myself more.

Claire 50:04

So when you think back to the experience now, what are some of the key moments that emerge?

What Your Clown Loves

Annie 50:12

I almost don't want to say because I want people to experience uh I want I want people to experience it themselves. Uh and also because you know everyone's everyone's experience will be different. Um what do you think you can safely share without um well I think uh there there's two things I can say. One is that your shadows come up. So that's just the subconscious, there's no no distraction. So the subconscious, what's there, what you usually hide. It's similar to clown, actually. What you hide and it comes up, you have there's nowhere to hide. There's just empty space. It's just you, an empty space. And even at one point I was like looking at my hand. I mean, you can't look at your hand because you can't see your hand, but you know, I had my hand in front of my face and I couldn't see my hand, and I was like, what if I I don't exist actually? I don't exist, nothing exists, everything is a projection, but I really understood it. And it's true, it's like you you confront your own non-existence, and also, yeah, there's your shadows. What you really push to the side and don't want to look at it comes up. Um that if you're curious about your shadows, it's uh very interesting and even pleasurable. Uh at one point I had uh this heat come up through my chest, and I was reciting a mantra, and I had this strange feeling come up through my chest and into my throat, and then I started to wail. And I I didn't even really know why, but it was I just kept on wailing, and it was like all of what I was attached to in in this physical world, it it felt like being stripped, but it was at the same time um painful and sad, extremely pleasurable and a huge relief, and the two existed at the same time. Uh yeah, and then and then in that moment I I felt like I could fully accept the vastitude of the space and uh disintegrate into the uh into the space.

Claire 52:59

So it is a kind of yeah, you have to it's a confrontation of non-existence or total aloneness or um well the thing again that people most want to avoid, and it's so easy to do because we're fed with constant distraction is whatever is like really coming up for you that you don't have to pay attention to in your daily life because you've got your phone is right there.

Annie 53:33

Yeah, that's the best part, guys. Just seven days without a phone, my god. Seven days without phone, email, I got to sleep. If you want uh an actual vacation, go into the dark for seven days. I mean it's work, but it's a different, it's it's it's so sweet. And the more um, you know, I I when I went in, I I really got the message of just if you if you get scared, just give yourself love. There's just only love. And I think that can really take you through anything that you go through. It's just you you do it from a place of love and not from a place of um struggle or punishment. You know, because actually it's quite interesting. Um it's used as a method of torture.

Claire 54:32

Yes.

Boxes, Unknown, And Ego Death

Annie 54:33

And so, in one end, you know, if you are there against your will and it's being done to you and you're the victim of your circumstance, it's horrible. And people go mad in solitary confinement. It's used as a method of uh of torture and punishment. And on the other hand, this was a choice, um and and it was so beautiful and so peaceful and so full of love and care. But it's uh it's the intention that you put on it and and how you go through, it's the same experience. Yeah, and and even if you are in jail and it's a punishment, if you put the intention of I love myself and I'm gonna go through this with love, nobody can do nobody can punish you. You cannot be a victim. And you can still access that sweetness, you can still access that infinite divine love.

Darkness Retreat: Why Enter The Void

Claire 55:37

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's been the uh the lesson and the revelation to certain people who have been imprisoned, whether it was justly or unjustly, um, yeah, was encountering that freedom that we that we all have. We may just, you know, intellectually believe it and not have had not have experienced it, but yeah, the access to freedom is there for everyone, no matter what the situation is. We talked a little bit about this, you and I the last time we were talking about you know fasting. So if you're not eating, some people are have a belief that you know if they don't eat, then they'll they'll die, you know. So there's a lot of fear that comes up with not eating. You can also approach fasting from any perspective, you know, and it's intention makes a huge difference in your experience when you go through fast, you know, because it's gonna bring up lots of emotions, lots of unresolved stuff, and lots of attachment. So yeah, that's um that's amazing. So, what did the darkness reveal about um who you are when there's nothing left to perform?

Annie 57:02

When there's nothing left to perform.

Claire 57:05

There's nobody there, there's no there's no not even the light of day.

Annie 57:13

I just love my own company and I love who I am. You get to spend a week with your best friend. I wanna go back in.

Claire 57:31

I mean, I'm not sure a lot of people can say that. I mean, I I think that's pretty rare.

Annie 57:46

So what truth about being human do you think you were born knowing? Um I think I have always had a sense of being free and being capable of yeah, being infinitely capable. That there is nothing that is impossible. Uh and that I I think I've always not believed in limits that other people have imposed on me. I think that's what I would say. And it's not to say, I mean, I encounter my perceived limits all the time, but there is an innate knowing deep inside that I am totally capable and that nothing is impossible. And that we are much more capable of we we are much more capable than we give ourselves credit for.

Claire 59:07

So if you I've I'm fascinated right now with this idea of job descriptions because I've stopped being able to do to describe in any way what I do. I'm like, if people ask me, I'm like, I I don't know. I'm you know, there are titles, there are job description descriptions in the world. But then I realized there's actually a deeper job description, if you want to call it that. You know, like what are you here to be? What are you here to bring? Like, what are you? What what is it that you that you're here to um what's the essence that that wants to express through you in this lifetime? And I think we each have

Shadows, Nonexistence, And Release

Annie 1:00:01

I think at the moment it's really uh connecting with joy. I think it's so important and responding to the call and the need for finding joy and humor in life. And that's what I do through the clowning. And and also d through that as well, the freedom of expression of all facets of our being. And I I teach voice as well, um, and uh puppetry and and through it all, it's how can how can I liberate myself more? It's really this idea of of full liberation to and once you've liberated yourself, go further. Where can where more can I liberate myself? Yeah, how can I fully embody being an idiot? I mean, if you can be an idiot in a world that uh uh champions intelligence and the mental capacities, and you can really lead your life from the heart, I mean that is it's uh it's radical.

Claire 1:01:05

Yeah.

Intention, Solitude, And Love In The Dark

Annie 1:01:08

I think humor and joy in itself is a sort of weapon in this world. If you if you can see the world uh and see yourself as being and know your freedom and and feel your joy when the world tries to make you limited and a victim of your circumstances, it's a way to know you can't catch a clown, it's like a bar of soap. The more you squeeze, the more it goes away. Exactly. And I really love this idea of like, how can I be a bar of soap? The more society tries to squeeze me, the more I I jump into the air. Uh dumb, you know? Uh and so uh yeah, I think uh I think it's quite radical and and it's a need that people have. Like uh I I feel like I I also kind of respond a bit to just I I just respond, I just say yes, you know. Uh when that's how the clowning started, you know. I just uh it was all innocent. It was really innocent. I just I had two weeks, it I went to a a training program, changed my life. And then uh with the teaching, I I asked my teacher if I could practice teaching clown. Um and it started this journey with the with a group of students, and I I I took I I took them through sort of a four-year program that I ended up developing um with this group of students on Zoom through COVID. Then I met them in in Canada in person and I did this clown intensive with them. You know, they I I think your your students really um are your teachers in a way, and they're the ones that guide you. And so um, yeah, I I really thank my students because they're the ones that asked and um pushed me to grow, actually, because I remember when I when I gave a five-day clown intensive, like uh, I was like, I have no idea how to do this. And I sort of was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have I only have a week because I'm I'm in Canada for only a short amount of time. So let's pack it into a week. And then I was there the first day being like, what have I done? You know, because it forced me to go beyond my limits. And then and then it's awesome. That's when you really have to also rely on grace and on the divine. And I pray before every class. I really do. Like every class I do, I'm like, I don't know if I can do this. I don't know if I can do this. Um, and and teaching is like going in front of people and doing clown. You know, I have so like I don't want to do it. I don't want to actually be honest, I I dread. I really sometimes I'm filled with dread. But I love it more than anything in the world. Like, really, the moments of uh the most profound moments I think I've had in my life are seeing my students on stage. Like it's way better than being on stage myself. Watching my my students on stage, amazing, super profound. Or being, yeah, just being in class and and making up an exercise on the like that's where I feel really connected to the divine. And uh, but it's uh it's it's really stressful.

Claire 1:05:06

Well, I love what you're saying, and and this occurred to me earlier too, when you were talking about, you know, um exploring freedom and being the soap, right? You know, because and this is this is like permission slips too, right? Because this idea of trying to avoid looking stupid, avoid being wrong, avoid uh feeling awkward, avoid emptiness, avoid all the stuff that we try to avoid. We're like trying to avoid one side of the wave. You can't, you have to have both, right? And and I've seen you and you've seen me in states that were, you know, I mean, I've seen you with all your hair down in front of your face. Like the in the the dump, the dumpiest of the dumps, you know, down low, right? But you're also able to go way up high because you let yourself explore the depths. Uh, that's how it works, you know. If you if you don't let yourself go down into the trough, then you can't go up into the peak. It's just everything gets, you know, flattened out. And what we're really, you know, giving ourselves permission for in this context is full embodiment of everything that we're experiencing. And, you know, and and what I love about the clown is that it allows you to amplify that experience into to absurdity, you know, so that you can so that you can um not be attached to it anymore, or you know, not be identified with it anymore. And that's how you find the freedom. And that goes for both sides of the of the wave.

Knowing You’re Capable And Free

Joy As Job Description

Humor As Resistance And The Bar Of Soap

Annie 1:07:01

Yeah, I think it's really a tool. It's just like uh um, you know, when you go diving, you have this oxygen tank with you, and I think that's what the clown is. Is this the oxygen tank, this plastic thing. Uh and it it really allows us to go into these uh dark, scary places uh with a lot of love and humor and and to keep kind of hold both sides of the coin at the same time is that when you're in the darkest of the dark, you also hold the light. And when you're in the light, you also hold the dark. And it's like the the yin-yang, you know, there's always the there's the spot of the dark in the white. It's like this, I think. Uh and this sort of keeps balance a little bit and allows you to go deeper than than you think is possible. Um But yeah, and it's it's in a similar way, you know. I said go towards your pleasure or go towards your fear. It's the same thing. It's the say is there's an energy in the fear, and there's an energy in in pleasure, and just what whichever one you choose, uh, go towards it fully. Um yeah, there's even there's there's two scenarios that I use often, and this is again from my first clown teacher. Uh one of the scenarios is you go uh fully embody the feeling of uh waiting for your lover in a park. You're waiting and you're waiting and you're waiting for your lover, and then finally you see them across the park, and you they come closer and closer and closer, and finally you embrace. And so it's to explore this range of of impulse and excitement and joy and pleasure in that. And then the other, the other exercise is um you're on the top of a mountain, it's beautiful, it's a spring day, and in you hear something off in the distance, and it's a you realize it's a plane. You look around for the plane, and you start to start to get a little bit uh worried. What is this? Where is it coming? It starts to get more and more loud, and you see the plane in the distance, and it's coming right towards you. And it starts to get closer and closer, and you realize it's on fire, and it's coming right towards you, and so you fully embody and it breaks again with your eyes open, with your breathing in all of this energy, all of this fear, and you open more and more and more until fully embodying and expressing this impulse. And then the the the airplane comes and it just misses your head and it and it goes away. But it's these two extremes, this pleasure and fear, and they're the same. You can explore them to their depths and um and share and share that with the audience. And I think with this connection to the audience, this is where really the the essence of clowning is in the connection to the audience. There is no fourth wall, your eyes are open, and you look at people. You connect with them in that in that moment, whatever you feel by resonance, they feel. When a clown comes on a stage and they're holding their breath, everybody holds their breath. If they're tense in their body, you can feel it, just it's this mirroring automatic that happens. If the clown comes out and breathes and really opens a door, like opens the veil of their eyes and looks at you, it's extremely um it's it's like being honored. And it's a gift you give to the audience. The more you are able to be open, the more you allow the audience to be seen and heard. And that's when the audience really loves, when the because it's the audience that's in charge. The when the audience laughs, you do what the audience you do it again, you follow what the audience loves. And so then they feel heard and listened to, and we never get listened to, and we never are feel heard, and so you know, it's really a gift you give to the audience, and it's something that's not normal in life, this kind of connection where there's nothing. You just just you just come on, and maybe there's nothing even that you're doing, but you're looking at the audience, or maybe you're you are having so much pleasure in a game that you're playing, and you look at the audience and you invite them into your own pleasure. You're in a struggle, you invite them into the pleasure of your struggle, and you give them this empowerment. And I had one student, she I I tell this story often, but I think it's one of the most beautiful moments I had in teaching. I had this student, she's 86 years old and tiny, awesome clown. Tiny, she's like half my size. And um, she did this exercise that uh is called making contact or being present. And you just come out, uh, sometimes with nose, sometimes I don't use the nose. You come out and you make contact uh with each person in the in the audience. So you you are you come out, you stand in the middle of the stage, you relax, you breathe, and you look into the eyes of the audience, each person, each individual, and you make contact with them. Just present with them, each individually. And um and she did this exercise and she she said afterwards, uh, I have never looked at people in the eyes in my whole life like that. And she's 86 years old, and she was um profoundly touched by this uh experience too, so simple, so simple, just being present with nothing, no words, not having to fill the space with words, not having to do anything, but just giving your presence to them. And and I think this is really the essence of clown, is it it's in is in this connection to share a moment with somebody and to really you're giving them yourself.

Claire 1:14:04

Is there anything else that you feel like you really want to share today? Like what is vitally important?

Teaching, Dread, And Grace In Practice

Annie 1:14:13

I mean everything you've talked about is vitally important, but is there anything else that I just think that yeah, I just think that clowning is really important because it allows us to share more joy together and share who we are and be more honest. And yeah, and the more it's really a practice, you know, and I often it it's not just reserved for people who are actors or whatever. It's like it's a tool. You can use it to to, you know, there's clowns that go into hospitals just to be present with with people, uh kids or into old age homes or uh to yeah, and and uh also for protests. It's a it's a different way to to play, you know, to really play with these hard, difficult things to talk about, things that make people angry, things that are um making conflict. It's like the the clown is like this uber neutral that can make the connection between uh I I think it really has the power to make connection between opposite groups of people, you know. It's a it's a political figure, it it can play with uh difficult subjects, and and also uh I think there is a real importance um in in clown uh especially in in the spiritual domain, because we can get so serious with our trauma and with our enlightenment. And uh yeah, the the clowning um the clowning, I think, really can can in a in a very loving way kind of remind us uh of the idiocy of all of it. Um and the the lightness as well and the point of why we do this, which is joy, because we forget sometimes in our you know, we we start to get power hungry or we start to think about the money of how much am I making off of my spiritualness, or oh, I'm a good person, I'm giving to charity, you know. And and um the ego has a lot of ways, uh it's a trickster as well. And so to combat this ego and the spiritual ego, I think clowning is uh is uh is a tool. Uh just keep laughing at yourself and just put on the nose every time you're getting a bit too serious, every time you're sad. Just like put just put on the nose and go look in the mirror. Um and yeah, I think uh I think it's a way we can be much more creative and open in our circumstances. You know, I think clowns should be uh I think clowns should should be enrolled in the army.

Claire 1:17:14

There should be clowns everywhere. There should be clowns in every domain.

Annie 1:17:18

Yeah.

Claire 1:17:20

That'd be illuminating.

Annie 1:17:22

Yeah, conscious clowns.

Claire 1:17:24

Yeah, yeah. All right, I like it. That's a new revolution, the red nose revolution.

Annie 1:17:30

Red nose revolution.

Claire 1:17:33

Oh, well, thanks for spending this time with me today.

Annie 1:17:38

My pleasure. It's really I could talk for ages about this.

Claire 1:17:44

Well, it's uh totally revolutionary and relevant topic. And um yeah, I mean, I feel like we could talk about it for hours too. There's so much to say, and there's then there's nothing to say because you have to just do it and experience it for yourself. It tells you everything.

Permission To Feel The Whole Wave

Annie 1:18:06

Yeah, to not intellectualize it as well is is uh quite important. Like I was saying just at the beginning of the of the interview, is you know, I start to talk about clown when I I start teaching and I get everyone in a circle and I take their intentions of why they're here, what they want to learn, and I talk about the clowning, what is clown and the definition of clown and styles of clown. I start to bore myself with the philosophy. Like I'm trying to pull the the clown is the essence of not being philosophical. And so it's really in the practice that we start to uncover and and gain actual knowledge, embodied knowledge, because the the body is going to teach you about your clown. The ex the the audience being in front of the audience is going to teach you about your clown. Putting on a piece of classic is going to teach you about this uh this essence. And um and and you don't know. Like you the clown unveils also where you are blind about yourself. And this is, and that's why we also need the audience, you know, that sometimes you you we don't we we sometimes come on stage and we have a fantastic idea of how we're gonna make people laugh, and then it doesn't work. And then they laugh at something and we don't understand why they're laughing at that. It's and it might be just in the way that we're walking or or in something that we try to hide. And and and often we we go towards, you know, like, oh, this is gonna be a great funny idea. And and out of that comes something completely unexpected. And it surprises us. And I think this element of being surprised is huge. Of being surprised by life, of being surprised by the moment, and of being surprised by the parts of yourself that you didn't see before, that you were totally blind. It's like, oh my God, I I'm I'm completely have been in my ego. I I've been, you know, maybe even spending 20 years of my life in uh uh trying to to get towards a goal or or um a position in my job, or and you see it, you have a little bit of distance from the clown, and you're like, oh my god, the whole time I was just trying to get love. You're like, oh my god, I spent 20 years trying to get love. Trying to get love by trying to be the CEO of a company, or trying to uh have a good boyfriend and get married, or you know, all of these these things that we define as success. Oh, I'm in a good, I know how to do the relationship, or I know how to do, I know how to be successful in my job, or with my kids, you know, I I'm a good mother, I'm a good mother. Um, all of this goodness stuff that we have. And and when you realize that the and I think that's also, you know, when a clown steps out into onto the stage, what they're looking for is love. You you want the love of the audience. And when you don't get the love, you feel like shit. And just the more you practice that, the more you realize that's what you do in life. It's like, oh my god, I'm trying to get love from this person, or I'm trying to get love from my mother or my father. It's the same. Is we get it and and literally the the clown comes on there trying to please people.

Claire 1:21:45

Right. And then the clown in the discovery uh process, the the clown discovers that they that they are the love and the source of love and pleasure.

Holding Light And Dark Together

Annie 1:21:55

Yes, the the more that you have pleasure, the more you have love, the more the it's the mirroring effect again. Yeah, the audience will will will feel it. Um yeah, and to accept when you're not loved, yeah, to really be like, oh, they don't love me.

Claire 1:22:14

Don't love me. Be honest, yeah, yeah.

Annie 1:22:19

I am completely not loved. I am I'm on stage, I tried to make people laugh. I'm a total fool. Uh I look like a fool, and I can't even make people laugh. I'm gonna leave now. I'm so I honestly am sorry. I think apology is quite important in class. You apologize to the audience for the shit show that was not funny, and then usually as soon as you accept this flop and you apologize, the audience will laugh. And then you're all happy again because they love me.

Claire 1:22:55

These are their these are the real lessons for life. Yes. Well, Annie Lockerby Newton, good amooknam. It's been a privilege. We're proud to know you.

Annie 1:23:09

Oh, me too.

Claire 1:23:12

Lots of love until we meet again.

Annie 1:23:16

Very, very much a pleasure. And I oh, I can just say one thing is that uh I thank you for your initiation as well as you initiated me into the spiritual world. So pleasure to it's a it's it's really a pleasure to speak with you today.

Exercises In Pleasure And Fear

Claire 1:23:34

Thanks, Annie. What I love about conversations with Annie is that they are not uh resolving in a neat line, you know, they just keep opening and she lives in a kind of creative edge space where truth arrives slant-wise, surprisingly, through embodiment, through play. Uh, and just what's so amazing to me is how she's always daring herself, you know, towards a deeper intimacy with life and with herself. And I hope you felt that today. And I hope it inspired you. Annie is reminding us that awakening is not always solemn or structured. Sometimes it looks like curiosity, risk, uh, taking the time to be silly, to laugh at yourself, to be still, um, to step willingly into the unknown, into the dark, just to see what it might teach us. Her path is really original, utterly her own. And yet, witnessing her, we're invited to reconnect with these parts of ourselves that are wild, that are mischievous, that are intuitive and vulnerable and deeply alive. So if today's conversation stirred something in you, a desire to explore your own edges, to take a risk, to soften the mask, or to return to what's real in your own way. Follow that thread. Annie's information is in the show notes, and she's living proof of what becomes possible when we trust our inner signal more than the expectations of the world. That's really going out of style now, people. Thanks, Annie, for bringing your beautiful boundary-dissolving practices and presence into this space. And thank you, listeners, for meeting us here. Until next time, stay curious, stay sovereign, stay playful, and as always, walk in grace. You've been listening to the Grace Space. To amplify this field, you're welcome to like, subscribe, or share.

Annie 1:25:56

Thank you.