Dropping The Mask: From Stagecraft To Soulcraft

What if the mask you've been wearing to protect yourself is the exact thing keeping you from being believed, trusted, and truly seen?

In this episode of The Grace Space, I sit down with Jesse Wilson — Juilliard-trained actor, founder of Tell The Winning Story, and the creator of the Victim-to-Victor approach — for a conversation that goes straight to the heart of judgment, authenticity, and what it really means to drop the mask.

Jesse and I trained together at Juilliard, but our paths split in wild directions — mine into coaching and personal transformation after 25 years in the business, his into prisons across Colorado, where he co-developed a theater program with inmates and addicts, and eventually into courtrooms across the country, coaching trial attorneys and witnesses on how to tell the truth of their story without performing victimhood.

We talk about:
- Why "authentic" doesn't mean the absence of performance — it means removing judgment
- The Victim-to-Victor approach, and why the word "can't" can quietly sabotage credibility
- How mask work in the theater mirrors the psychological armor we all wear
- "Embrace the suck" — why struggle, not polish, is what makes people believe you
- The four-step process Jesse uses to help witnesses (and all of us) reconnect to what's real
- Becoming the compassionate witness to your own life

If you've ever felt like you had to earn the right to be seen — this one's for you.

Read the blog: https://www.clairelautier.com/blog/the-lessons-of-the-stage-are-the-tools-that-heal-the-heart

🌐 Learn more about Jesse Wilson and Tell The Winning Story: https://tellthewinningstory.com/

Transcript

Allowing, Awe, And Judgment

Claire 0:03

Welcome to the Grace Space, a transmission for the sovereign soul.

Jesse 0:20

Such a powerful word in all of its implications to just allow, and again, it comes back to the numerano target: freeing yourself of judgment, the single greatest roadblock there is to being a great human being, a great actor, a great lawyer. Start there. And then, yeah, and getting yourself to the place of allowing and awe. And it's so easy to say for me to sit here and say, when when I'm not the men and women that I work with who are are living unspeakable tragedies. People ask me all the time, how are you able to do what you do day after day after day? Not to say that it isn't tough. I mean, if I'm dealing with children, um, that's always tough. But you know, I live in other people's tragedies. And and and my answer is I I don't see them as their tragedies. I'm inspired by them. I'm I'm I'm I'm removing my judgment of I'm not literally not seeing somebody as their pain because if if if all they were were their pain, most of them probably wouldn't even be here talking to me.

Quick Listener Support Request

Claire 1:41

Hey everyone, real quick before we begin, if this content matters to you, you're warmly invited to subscribe to this channel, to like this video, to leave a comment, or all three. I read all the comments, and your engagement is really important because when you engage, it tells YouTube to push this content out to more people who would find value in it. Now that I understand this, I engage a lot more with the channels that are important to me because I know it really matters. Thanks for listening. Here we go.

Reuniting After Juilliard

Claire 2:11

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Gray Space. Today I am joined by someone who feels like a homecoming, Jesse Wilson. Jesse and I go all the way back to Juilliard. We were there at the same time. We weren't in the same class, but we knew each other back then. And you know, um, years later, we started communicating again. And what strikes me every time we talk is how much our language overlaps, even though we've walked very different paths to get here. Jesse took his theater training somewhere, I bet he didn't expect, um, when he was in school. And that was into prisons across Colorado, co-developing a theater program with inmates and addicts and using masks and the tools of the stage to help people tell the truth of their own stories. It became this huge healing operation. And then that work became the foundation of what he now calls the victim-to-victor approach. It's a great name. And today, through his business tell the winning story, he brings that same approach to trial attorneys and he teaches them how to help their clients be heard, not pitied. And he also works with business leaders and anybody who's looking for personal transformation using the tools of the stage. So, in this conversation, we we went really deep on the subject of judgment, uh, the judgment that we carry, the judgment that we fear, um, and and the masks that we build to survive it or escape it. Uh, and Jesse talks about the difference between performing and being real, and why the word can't uh can quietly sabotage a story, and why he believes that the tools of the stage aren't really about entertainment at all. And this is the thing that I've been thinking about ever since we talked. He said they're instruments to heal the heart. This is so wonderfully profound and meaningful to me personally, because of how my life has come full circle uh since those days. So, without further ado, let's get into it. Jesse, it's really fun to have you here in the grace space. Everybody, Jesse and I were at school together uh at Juilliard. We were there at the same time, not in the same class, but at the same time, right, Jesse?

Jesse 4:41

Yeah, that's right. That's absolutely right.

Claire 4:44

So worlds colliding, uh, realities coming together. And I was on your website uh earlier looking at things, and I'm familiar with your website, but I think it's gotten like even more awesome since the last time I looked at it. I was astonished by how similar our language is. You know, the things that we talk about, the the what we facilitate for others. It's it's just incredibly uh it's so much resonance. And so it's uh I'm really, really happy. Welcome to the gray space. I'm so glad you're here.

Jesse 5:15

Thank you, Claire. It's so great to be here. Yeah, I mean, you're one of the few people I know who really took the their background in theater and used it um in the transformational realm uh that you're in. I mean, there's a few of us out there, but uh it's great to actually know somebody where we're cut out of the same cloth and pretty much no, I want to I I don't know what your experience with Juilliard was, but the fact that we were actually were there together. Um yeah, it's pretty cool.

Claire 5:43

Yeah. Well, I mean, I I loved every minute of it. I I um, you know, that was where I wanted to be. And I was just hungry to learn and hungry to, you know, just to get to to do that full time for four years, you know, and then to move out into the business with that background. Um but you know what has what has come back over and over and over again in my life is what an apt metaphor the stage is for life itself, you know, and and how powerful the teaching tools of the stage are for life. Now, everybody, Jesse, um Jesse has a business called Tell the Winning Story, and and you work with lots of lawyers, don't you, Jesse? But you also work with business leaders and you work with people who are, you know, there for um, you know, personal expansion and self-expression, right?

Jesse 6:34

That's exactly right. Yeah, about 90% of who I work with, yes, are attorneys. If you would have told me I'd end up working with attorneys 15 something years ago, I would have said, You're you're seriously smoking something. But yeah, business leaders um and people in with in personal transformation and um and the work began actually after uh after the theater days, uh, being a teacher, but also really primarily the the real shift in my life came working with inmates and addicts in prisons across Colorado, uh, co-developing a theater behind bars program. So that, yeah, didn't see that coming either.

Claire 7:13

Wow. I remember you telling me about that. That that's amazing. Wait, wait, how did this all I mean, after school, what was your experience

Theater Boot Camp And Vulnerability

Claire 7:20

like there? I don't think we ever really talked about that.

Jesse 7:22

Uh, you know, it's funny. I'm I'm incredibly grateful for being a Juilliard. I mean, I really am. I'm I'm the as the years progress, I'm actually really, really proud of saying I'm a Juilliard graduate. Not that I've ever downplayed that before, but the truth is it was not a fun time for me. It really, I mean, the I learned some amazing stuff. Stuff that I use today. Um, truly. So I don't, I do not take that experience for granted. But but it was a really I I I'm not a military guy. I know plenty of people who are military, so it's probably wrong to compare this to it, but it felt like like like theater boot camp for me. Um and this is a place where people are saying you need to be more vulnerable. And and if you're not vulnerable enough, we're gonna kick you out. Um, good luck with that. So, but at the same time, yeah, I realize that was a teaching methodology that probably made sense to a lot of people that it's like, listen, um tough. I mean, you you you you buy the buy the ticket, you you you get on, you know, you're on the ride. Um, and but uh it was also something that I and I don't I really it's easy to play the blame game, and I'm not and I I hope that doesn't come across. It it's what I brought into as well, and um my own judgment, uh my own struggle, my own mask. And um for the better part of four years, I felt like I was really, really good, like I got my theater degree at Juilliard learning how to be vulnerable. Um, I was very good at it. But there were moments, there were moments when I broke through that judgment, and I feel like um really, really proud of those moments. So no, it was not. I don't look back and go, oh, my my I don't feel cozy and warm inside of my Juilliard days. On the other hand, I'm so grateful that I was there.

Claire 9:24

Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess, you know, there's a reason why some people called it the jail yard. Yeah. I thought that was really funny. And I mean, if you think about it, I I think it was probably that was kind of an old Piscean model of teaching too, you know. And I I wonder if it's probably considerably different now. But uh also, you know, it's preparing you for a business where, you know, um the same thing is happening, right? I mean, it's a it's a business you got to go in there and bear your heart and be real in a situation that's really artificial where you know that you're being judged. I mean, I remember going in for a pilot, a TV pilot audition one time, and I was not at my best uh at that moment, I remember. And I got into the room and the guy behind the table looked at my headshot and then he looked at me and he very unkindly said, Who is this? But I know, like, oh, thanks, you know, hit me when I'm down. Okay, you know, it it was it was brutal.

Jesse 10:27

Wow.

Claire 10:28

Uh, I I did I didn't know what to say. I was literally, I mean, I was gobsmacked. I was shocked. He he just, you know, it was yeah, I mean, that was a it was um you go into an uh judgmental environment and you have to be vulnerable, you know, you have to be um open. And uh it that's that's a daily challenge, but I think that's the way the world is too, you know. Like how do you live in a world that is so tough uh and keep your heart open? That is the human challenge.

Jesse 11:00

How do you live in a world that is so tough and keep your heart open? There's the rub. Yeah. Yeah.

Claire 11:08

Well, and I I saw something about that. I'm just gonna quickly go look back at your website here. I was uh reading some of the some of the things that you say are like things that come out of my mouth, you know. Um talking about dropping the mask and the power of authentic communication. And so how do you work with people? Um you know, with this lens, people who have no experience in the theater and uh teach them to uh drop their judgment and become more yeah, drop the mask, exactly. I see I've I feel like I've been learning how to do that my whole life, you know.

Jesse 11:49

Yeah, well, listen, I mean, you there's no graduating from this stuff. I teach what I need to learn, I teach what I need to remember every season.

Claire 11:57

I say that all the time, too. I say the exact same thing. Oh my god.

Jesse 12:00

I mean, can you imagine if I said, you know, you're talking to some guy who's mastered this. I've graduated from this, and I there's no judgment of myself. Oh yeah, run, get the hell out of my seminar, get out of my workshop. No, no, absolutely. Um I'm working with you to to remind myself how important this work is for me. Um, but yeah, I let's let's let's lean on our on our backgrounds. For me, the the the experience that I didn't have to wear a mask in, ironically, was mask class. Yeah. Um, did you study with Pierre Lefet?

Claire 12:41

Yeah.

Jesse 12:41

Yeah, right. Am I pronouncing his right name right? I always get it Pierre Lef. Lefebvre. But I love that guy. I mean, he was like this. I describe him as he looked like Clarence, uh, the angel from It's a Wonderful Life, and he would kind of lurk up behind you let's let's make a different choice. You know, shall we? Oh, maybe smell that flower. And he would sort of give these little suggestions to discover the character. But then he also would like would transform himself into these un incredibly diverse characters. And then he would, I always joke, he'd be the Clarence the Angel became Clarence the Hell's Angel on a drop of a done. But but that work mask class, um I really felt like I could be myself. I hear that from a lot of people that I've worked with. Uh, the mask usually gets two kinds of reactions when you first wear it and look at it. Oh, hell no. There's no way I'm gonna put that thing on my face or oh yeah, bring it on, man. I mean, I can't wait to discover this this person, this personality, this persona, and and people get lost in the mask, and then they'll say, you know, I for a brief period of time, I wasn't focused on me. And boy, that is so liberating and so wonderful. That was my experience. I brought in a lot of bag and bags. I mean, listen, I'm no different than any other person on the planet, but I was 18 years old. A good friend of mine had just taken his own life shortly before I went to school. I know, and so you know, I didn't know how to deal with that kind of trauma. And then there's yeah, I'm 18 years old, period. Full stop. And and ego is flying to the roof, and you know, I want to be Marlon Brando one minute and Jack Kirawak the next, and every other face on my wall. And then I'm in Pierre's class, and I'm I don't have to, nobody has to see this, and I can lose myself in a different character. And I wasn't consciously aware of it at the time, but that's where I got to play with judgment. You see, when we get ourselves to a place where we're playful, where we're curious, when we have when our emotional state is awe rather than trying to bludgeon or pit bull our way into a result in our life, but can get curious with the pain, um, then then true

Masks, Play, And Prison Workshops

Jesse 15:06

change can exist. So yeah, theater gets a weird rap with a lot of people. You say theater and they run, or they say theater and then they understand that what's behind theater is really about human connection. So when I had the opportunity to work with inmates and addicts in prisons across Colorado, and again, I wasn't looking for that. That was a knock-knock, and and a guy that I was, or a woman that I was working with, her husband, his name is Dave Fine. This is back when I was working with kids for years, rebuilding my life. Um about 16, 17, no, no, more than that, about 20 years ago, roughly in Colorado, um, I got invited to start working with with inmates. And uh it scared the crap out of me the thought of doing it, and that's why I did it. I always have was intrigued with the idea of theater in prison. I mean, all I've heard about all these programs that that um, and I just thought I wanted to be a part of that somehow, and I I didn't know exactly what that looked like, and then the opportunity came. And so I thought, oh, how was I gonna reach them? I'm in maximum security prison. Um yeah, and so I brought in the masks, Clara. It was amazing. I brought in the masks and didn't know what kind of results I would I would get. Uh, this is a part of a restorative justice program that helped the men and women that I worked with tell their tell their stories and um part of the second chance program, and and um and the the the the result were was was an overwhelming success. Um and because they they were having so much fun. And um but that was that's what got him through the door. And then you know, you're you're in this we we we bring these mirrors into the mat, into the into the workshops. Now you can't bring like glass in there, that's a no-no. So I found this really cool, I can't remember the name of the I have it down in my basement. I can't remember the name of the material, but this beautiful reflective like glass you can kind of bend and manipulate and everything. And so we had that in there, and I've got 20, 30 dudes, and I had ordered all these wonderful masks, similar to the masks, the character masks that we worked with, the character and the neutral masks with working with Pierre. And so you've got all these dudes up there, big tatted out dudes, next out to here, and they're putting on these warped, strange, misshapen, sometimes scary masks. I mean, nobody who's ever I'm grabbing one right here. Here's an example of one of these, right? Does that that does that bring you back to the good old days? It sure does. Yeah, you bet. And you know, nobody ever wears a mask and says, wow, what a lovable, warm uh uh mask this is. They're pretty scary. They're off-putting, they're frightening, and that's the purpose. And so the phase part one of this exercise, once you actually put the mask on and you you warm up to the mask in your body, you're already immediately removing one of the single greatest roadblocks there is to being a great human being, communicating at your greatest level, and that's judgment. Play, literally, play, find the physicality of the mask in your body. Where does the character live in your body? And so you're you're starting to move and you're starting to take choices and risks, and it's like, and you're trying to justify this character with this mask on. Well, that's part one of that. And then that's that, and then step two is like, okay, well, who is this person? 99.9% of the time, and and no judgment against the people who are doing it, it's an easy thing. It's easy to want to play the villainous, scary, you know, character when you're wearing this mask. And that's fine. You start there, but then then part three is then make a choice. Find the redemption, find something that's actually likable about this character. Find maybe the lovable grandfather, or the woman who is listening to music from her childhood, or the grandmother who's rocking a baby. When you're wearing this scary off-putting mask, judgment starts to be removed. The mask starts to disappear. And now you're seeing that something that's likable, something that is uh playful, something that is re redeeming behind something that is so easy to judge. And so let's take a look. Maybe let's take off the masks and let's talk about what this experience was like. And they do a show and tell, and there's humor, and but but great pathos and empathy uh is born in this experience. Because then the then the radical shift is okay, now let's take a look at the person looking back in you in the mirror, let's take a look at this mask, the actual mask, there where you carry around from from day to day. And so this is where the work, the foundation of the work that I I began doing with within with with witnesses were born, and I call it the victim-to-victor approach.

Victim To Victor Storytelling In Court

Claire 20:15

Yeah, tell us more about that. I mean, I I know that I've used uh those terms uh to describe the the shift that we all, it's an archetypal shift that we all go through, isn't it?

Jesse 20:29

Completely, completely, yeah. So again, knock knock. I'm not look, I'm doing the work in in prison, and you know, as as you know this, as a as a teacher, you're you're you're trying to supplement supplement your income with everything under the sun. So I was doing workshops and all this stuff. It was all around communication and human connection. And then I get this call saying, hey, we need um we need this also from my buddy Dave Fine. He calls me, he goes, Jesse, I think you might be interested in in this. Um there's a woman that I know, her name is Kathy Osborne, and she runs a legal conference called 360 Advocacy. And they need a communications expert, uh storyteller guy to come up and work with a bunch of lawyers. It's at a conference in Aspen, about three hours from where I live. I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, I'll do it, but please tell me I don't have to know anything about the law. I was like, the my cousin Vinny character, you might, and it was a voidier conference. I'm like, what the hell is Void Dire? What is that? But it turns out this workshop was another major door opener because um most of the people were there. And it was a smaller workshop because it was in the middle of this big winter storm, and I think out of 80 people, I think only 20 people were able to to arrive at this conference in Aspen. And most of the people there are clients that I still work with today. And um not even like I mean, we're not even into lunch and uh On our lunch break, and and and people are coming up to me saying, I don't know how to tell my client's story. And um not only do I not tell my client's story, I realize I've been telling it in a completely wrong way. Well, I didn't know exactly what that meant back then because I because I again I didn't really have any frame of reference. I knew nothing really about the law aside from things that I'd seen in movies, and I was in, you know, I was in 12 Angry Men. That was about as close as that I understood about the courtroom and the law and stuff. Well, one of the guys who was there named Mel Orchard, who is a dear friend of mine, and he was running faculty and he he taught closely with Jerry Spence at uh Jerry Spence's Trial Lawyers College. Jerry Spence is and he died recently, but he's one of America's like you know pine pioneers and just uh just uh uh a huge name in the legal legal world. Um he says, you know, what you're doing here is really, really unique. It's more than just teaching people how to communicate from the heart and and and persuade. This victim to victor approach, I would love to be able to help you breathe fire into this because they people literally are telling the wrong story in the courtroom when it comes to the client's story. And it's victim-based rather than victor-based. What that means is most of the the attorney, I don't do any defense work, I do criminal defense, but I do I work only with plaintiffs' lawyers and personal injury, wrongful death, and traumatic brain injury and and medical malpractice and car crashes and all that stuff. That's that's that's where I live in other people's trauma. So I start sitting in courtrooms and I become a human sponge, and I'm like, holy crap, yeah, it's like pretty much what you see on TV, the witnesses up there, oh talking about I can't and I can't and I can't and I can't, and not to say that you can't still get good results of that, but most of the time it's just like jurors are like, uh, you know, the same way that theater goers are when we're seeing somebody playing a victim on stage. It's the same thing. Get me the hell out of here. So my message is this, and it came from working again with inmates and addicts, helping men and women not to find themselves by their pain. Um ladies and gentlemen, is the best example I can think of. Imagine we're in the courtroom, Claire. And um ladies and gentlemen, that we've we've gone through jury selection and now we're in opening statement. And whether or not the lawyer says these words about his client or not, he he communicates these words to the jury only 100,000 percent of the time. Ladies and gentlemen, the jury are gonna have a chance to meet my client, Miss Jones. And I want to make it very clear right now that she is not her pain. Say that again. She's not her pain. She's not a brain injury, she's not whatever the injury is, she is not her pain. So who is she? She is the strength of trying to overcome her pain. And I can't wait for you to meet her. Now that's a vastly different message than what m what you hear many attorneys say, she is her pain. She can't do this, and she can't do this, and she can't, can't, can't, can't, can't. Now give us a lot of money. Good luck with that story. But when you're telling the story of strength, when you're telling the story of hope, and when you're telling the story of another very counterintuitive idea called joy, despite the pain, paradoxically, in the courtroom, in the world of law, you actually maximize your damages. You end up allowing the jurors to see the pain at an even greater level. Because when we see somebody who's trying to overcome their pain, we want to help them at an even greater level. And that keeps us out of victim lane versus victor lane. Now, yeah. So that's the approach.

Claire 25:59

Well, that that's uh that's brilliant. I mean, frankly, yeah, that's brilliant. And and um I mean, I I had all of these uh deep questions coming to me while I was listening to you. Like, first of all, what does it say about we humans, you know, that when we see a story of overcoming, um, you know, we resonate with that and we want to support it. Um, that's a really beautiful, that's a beautiful thing. And and you know, I think a lot of us have negative associations with the courtroom and you know, all of the shenanigans that can go on in there. And and you know, of course, we've all been educated by courtroom dramas on TV and film for generations, right? Um, but yeah, there was that question. And then and um yeah, uh uh, I mean, the story of overcoming, the story of um yeah, triumph uh over circumstances.

Jesse 26:57

Trying to overcome. So, you know, yes, it it it the victor gets a gets it's important to be clear on this. Is why I call it Victor versus Hero. Um, for me, hero is almost too broad. Uh, it's almost like it's hero, I've won the battle. Victor is about trying to overcome the battle. Um remember, Rocky lost. You know, it it it's it's show me a man or a woman who's trying to overcome their pain and I want to give you everything, versus hey, listen, you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm great. I'm I'm wonderful with the man in the mirror. Yeah, fantastic. Well, all right. Well, if I'm a juror, what the hell do I need your hope for, your your help for? So take that into real life. I don't know that many people who have completely overcome something versus people who are who either are really close to maybe overcoming it or are so far away from overcoming it. But but you know what? They're trying like hell to overcome it. I'd rather listen to that person who's trying like hell to overcome it than somebody who says, I'm a hero, I've overcome that battle. Um, now there are some things that are great to say, you know, I'm a victor of. I don't, you know, this is this is Jesse. I'm I'm I'm over 25 years uh recovery of of a drug that damn nearly took my own life. Uh so I'm not trying to overcome that. I've overcome that. Uh I don't, you I wouldn't go back to that life with if I don't care what you dangled in front of me. However, there are certain things that led to that addiction that I haven't overcome. I'm working like hell to to uh to let go of. And and I may never not ever get there.

Claire 28:55

Um, this is my I I love what you said about you know, teaching what it is you need to learn. I I I say this all the time too, you know. I mean, I think that's why I've created so many programs because I'm I'm trying to teach myself, like, okay, I I know what am I working on overcoming now? What am I working on dissolving now? What am I working on on trying to gain a deeper understanding of now? And then I create a program around it and I start teaching it to all of my students and clients. And, you know, um that's how that's how I learn too, you know. And and so I I love that that position of, you know, not putting yourself above anybody else. You know, there's no hierarchy here. This is the human experience, and we're here to help each other out, you know, we're here to reflect uh something to one another. And um, it's very heartening to hear that, you know, your way of um repositioning people's stories it actually is validated in the courtroom, you know, um, and backed up by by rewards, you know. Um that's I I wouldn't have expected that. And but it makes sense now.

Jesse 30:06

Yeah, well, you know, it's a word that I tell witnesses never

The Word Cant And Authenticity

Jesse 30:10

to say is the word can't. And and and I make it very clear, listen, I'm not minimizing your pain. Obviously, you're here because there are certain things you can't do. And other people could say, you know, she can't do that, or he cannot do that. Uh, but can't is a victim word. Say it's hard for me to, or it's difficult for me to, or but the word can't should be like battery acid on on the witness's mouth because the jurors are uh uh are are are just waiting for confirmation bias. Oh, here we go. Here comes the victim story, here comes the sympathy story, here comes the poor me story. Now it's jackpot justice litigation lottery. Now it's a freaking money grab. So it's hard for me to. It's difficult for me to. It's some days there was a woman I worked with recently. She goes, here we go. I'm on the struggle bus. And I stole this from it from another woman. I got it. And I wish I came up with it. She said during prep session, she goes, you know, Jesse, there is one time you can say can't. I'm like, really? What? I can't give up. I'm like, yeah, there you go. Give me some exactly it.

Claire 31:25

Yeah. You know, another uh word that you use a lot and that I saw all over your website was the word authenticity and authentic communication. What does that mean to you? How are you teaching that?

Jesse 31:37

You know, the word authentic, I think everybody thinks they understand what it means and it sounds great. It's like, yeah, just be real. I mean, just be real. I mean, show me what being real is. But it's like, listen, Clara, I mean, how did you ever have an acting teacher that said to you, God, just make me feel? I or or or just be real up there? What the hell do you do with that?

Claire 31:58

Well, you can't be real if you're not real with yourself. I mean, that's the the big thing I discovered. Was it's easy to say to somebody, just be yourself, just be yourself. But for a lot of people, that's a tall order. They don't feel comfortable with themselves, they don't feel good in their own skin.

Jesse 32:13

What is yourself? What is being real? You know, the word performance gets a gets a real bad rap. It does. It has there are negative connotations to it and positive connotations to it. And I'm not ignoring your question. We're going to come back to like what authentic communication actually actually actually means. But the word performance, so I mean, if if I'm talking about Michael Jordan or if I'm talking about uh an athlete, you say peak performance. You say, oh, the performance on the courtroom, or the performance on the field, the performance on the ice. And we don't question it. We're like, yeah, okay, that's that's it, right? So we know that they are athleticism and and mind-body spirit of being a great athlete at their absolute best. But you say performance in the courtroom, or I was gonna say performance. I mean, I was uh well, I would say performance at home, but then there's performance in the bedroom, but that gets a whole, you know, right. But so that was like, well, yeah, but but it but in my world where 90% of what what where I who I work with is the courtroom, performance gets a really negative content. Performance, no, there's no performance, absolutely. This is not about being performative. This is not about a dog and pony show. This what and I get a lot of pushback uh in workshops and seminars. The lawyers are paying me a lot of money just to come and argue with me. I'm like, all right, let's that's what they'd love to do. I mean, it's what they do, right? How often, maybe you've heard this too in your in your work. What you see is what you get. I'm the real deal. What you see is what you get. Okay, you're losing cases, your jurors are rolling their eyes at you. Um, your trial team thinks that you are going the wrong direction, your your your uh your marriage has fallen apart. Um so okay, what you see is what you get. Do you think you might want to maybe think about a different role? Um, and I lean on this word role. Well, you can call it blobity cuckoo-poo. If the word performance is off-putting to you, if you associate that with you know theatrics and being wearing a mask, fine. But you're still in a performance, whether you like it or not. It's how you're showing up. And when you're in an environment where there's nothing normal or natural, there's nothing normal or natural about being in a courtroom, nothing normal or natural about being a lawyer in front of 12 jurors who are like that. Nothing normal or natural to have a man or a woman come their lives completely turned around. They're on a witness stand, you got 12 jurors in this cold box called a courtroom looking at them. And the lawyer, five minutes before you go on, says, I need you to go up there and just be real. You know, just speak from your heart. Good luck with that. You know, there's nothing normal or natural about a boardroom presentation, a TED talk. Um anytime there's people sitting in front of it, there's nothing normal or natural about the theater. Nothing. You've got to find a way of making it a little bit more normal, a little bit more natural, finding the ease within the disease. And that means cultivating a role that becomes true to you. There's less than one percent of people I know who can just stand up and be like, hey, what you see is what you get. And everybody would agree with them. Yeah, you're real. Um so yeah, so authentic communication. Yes, of course, the goal is is is to be real. But the thing that makes authentic communication there are so many different um tools and trips, tick trick the tricks of the trade, um, how to stand and what to do with your eyes, and pitch, tone, voice, and um, you know, raising your energy and dropping your energy, and and and not to say that that isn't valuable stuff, but it's all cosmetic, in my opinion. It's all absolute surface stuff if you haven't hit the primary target of what makes authentic communication, um, communication, communication. What what what what is that essential piece? And for me, it's the ability to remove judgment. And it goes I try to keep the work that I do with people really, really simple, but it goes back to the theater, Claire. And when you change your relationship with your listener, not only does the conversation change, but you change. You know, one of my heroes, Wayne Dyer, you probably heard him say this. You know, change the way you look at things and the things that you look at change. It's so simple, but it's so freaking hard to do sometimes. Um, I can teach you how to remove your judgment. For me, sometimes I'm the last person in the world to drink my own damn Kool-Aid. But if I'm in a place where I'm able to get a little bit playful and ask myself a really great question I learned, I mean, one of the one of the first improvs I ever did was the exercise. What else can it be? What else can this be? You remember that exercise, you know, you or it's that sometimes this is not a stick, it's uh you remember that? Like, you know, I remember like sixth grade or seventh grade drama, and everybody would pass around a baton or a stick, and what else can this be? It's not a stick, it's uh, it's a it's uh, it's uh, and you come up with 50 million different interpretations of a freaking pen. Yeah, but the takeaway for that me is what else can this be? I ask myself that question all the time. That is a lesson from the stage. What else can this be? I'm scared right now. Eyeballs are on me. Everything's on the line. High stakes up the wazoo. But what else can this be? And that's when I rely upon the four steps. And the four steps, when you're preparing for a monologue, there's all these steps, and that that that that that that who you want and what do you want, and who you're talking to, and all that stuff, and what's my objective, and what's my intention, and what's getting in the way of what I want. And so the thing that made the most sense to me as a teacher when I was helping people change their lives, transform their lives, is the one thing that I really knew about, was was even remotely good at, and that was work, it was theater work. So I thought, well, what if we took the same steps towards transform an actor transforming themselves into a meaningful three-dimensional character that audiences care about? What if we took those same steps and applied them to our own lives? So step one, who are you talking to? What do I want? Step two. Step three, what gets in the way of what I want? What's the sacred obstacle? What's the struggle? And then step four, what changes? I use these steps with everybody I'm working with.

Four Steps To Change The Listener

Jesse 39:13

Witnesses, lawyers. And when you go to the theater, you don't know the weird, nutty stuff that the actors do backstage. Crawling around and breath work and the the making the personal connection, all sorts of nutty things to make the the the the unrealness of the theater experience real and intimate. So using these steps, I've seen I worked with a uh there's a woman last week terrified of going into the courtroom. Terrified. I mean, who who could blame her? Public speaking, for first of all, is is next to death and dying. I'm telling you what you already know, right? Is is most people's top fear. And then now you have a witness who's the other side, this whole their whole thing is is their whole existence is about discrediting the other person and surveillance videos and saying the reason why she looks fine, ladies and gentlemen, is because she is fine. And and the trauma of judgment, and and now you want her to be real. So, how do you do that? Breath work, uh uh memorize this line. Um uh uh let's work on your pitch and you're right. What the hell is that gonna do in that kind of environment where you're freaking being eaten alive by eyeballs? Yeah, this woman shifted and changed her relationship to her listeners. She imagined that she was talking to her dead sister. Okay. And if she needed to inspire her her dead sister, her dead sister is going through a really tough time. And imagine this all came from the woman I was working with, call her Sally. And and and Sally imagined that she was talking to her dead sister, and her whole thing was about how can I inspire her? So, step one, who am I talking to? I'm talking to my sister, Edie. What do I want? I want to inspire Edie. I want to let her know if I can do this, so can you. Edie, we we found out, and the jurors never heard about this, didn't need to because it had no real relevancy to who she was, but her own internal work, we learned that Edie had taken her own life and a very, very similar path to where this witness was going because of her injury. If I can do this, you can do this. This is a conversation that would inspire Edie. What gets in the way of what I want? Step three, Edie's not listening to me. Edie's shutting me down. Edie had was very sarcastic, and she would like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, save me the Hallmark card, you know, you're not, you yeah, yeah, whatever. Get out of my face. She imagined, Sally imagined that struggle. She made it real for her herself. And then step four, what changes? Son of a bitch, actually, like my sister's listening to me. She imagined herself um talking to her sister. So all the eyeballs on her was her sister. That was the jury. And we got a great result. And the woman texts me back after I said, How'd it go? She goes, My sister was happy.

Claire 42:24

This is amazing. Um, you know, uh it it makes total sense, you know, to use imaginary circumstances to yeah, to to influence yourself, your your physiological state to calm down, to be able to open up, to yeah. I mean, it makes total sense to do that in a courtroom environment, although I've never thought about it before. And I'm finding, because I think, you know, last time we talked, Jesse, I was telling you how I feel like I'm coming full circle in my coaching work. I'm I'm suddenly, I'm I've I've got like I'm working with a bunch of actors and people who uh are you know want to learn acting skills and and um what I'm finding it is so uh profound and multidimensional because the paradox is, you know, as you said, you're in a completely unnatural situation, an unnatural environment, and you're trying to find what's real and human and allow it to be seen without um you know, without playing at it, without uh performing it in the negative sense of the word, you know, um, in the in unnatural circumstances. And I find myself inevitably um with every student that I'm uh working with in this capacity, um back to my coaching roots, you know, it's back to the deep spiritual work of um, you know, what we what we learn to do uh to forgive ourselves, right? Remove judgment, as you would say. To so that we can be comfortable in our own skin, so that we can, so that the presence that we that we are can radiate through naturally. You know, and this is not something that, as you said, you know, you can accomplish by giving external direction, you know, lift your hand at this moment, turn your head. I mean, that stuff can be useful under the right current conditions, right? But absolutely.

Jesse 44:24

I mean, if some jackwat is, you know, let's say, okay, fine, you've done the four steps, but you're flailing your arms around. Well, then, you know, yeah.

Claire 44:32

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, but but it's funny because what you can't teach, you you can't, you can, it's not that you can't teach it, you can point the way, right? You can't give it to somebody. You can't give them that self-love. You can't um give them, you you can provide the space for unconditional acceptance with your own presence, right? And that is under those conditions, people start to relax, they start to open up, and they start to find that within themselves, I guess by resonance, you know. Um, but it is absolutely, you know, um forgive me as I as I struggle to articulate this, but you know, in my younger days as an actor, I I was always wanting to get to the truth of things. I was always wanting to find that, you know, um the the the what was real and what was authentic and what was emotionally true, you know, in any given circumstances, no matter what the part was, no matter whether it was film or television, no matter if it was, you know, elevated language and you know, no matter what the requirements were. But I think because I was young and because I there was so much of my own stuff that I hadn't dealt with, that I had not metabolized, that I had not um alchemized in the fire of uh transformation that I couldn't really deeply accept myself. And so there's something that always um in hampers, you know, it's in the way of it's that self-judgment, right? That unconscious guilt and stuff like that that gets in the way of real performance. And the words, the words mean to they mean the two things simultaneously, don't they? They it means truth, like performance means truth and it means performance and it means true and false at the same time. It just depends on the energy that's running through it, you know. So it wasn't until way later in my life when I did walk through the fire uh of my own, you know, uh transformation. And I did, you know, start to alchemize. And again, like you were saying, you know, it's not like, okay, it's over, I'm finished with that now, and now it's all done. You know, it it's uh I think you you get you do get to a point where you're like, okay, most of my stuff is not bothering me anymore, you know, and I'm still working on things and we still are working, going down through the layers. But, you know, paradoxically, it is that um simplicity and you know, um removal of obstacles that allows for, you know, a greater presence to emanate from people and a greater truth to be sensed and felt by the audience, by the listeners. You know, you can't make anybody do it, you can't teach it, you can only hold the space for it. People always have to do their own work, but you can use the tools of the stage, which is the the height of artifice. This is the paradox.

Allowing, Higher Power, And Curiosity

Claire 47:39

Maybe you can help me understand it. Divine paradox of the, yeah, of artifice of the stage are the same tools that we must rely on in life to become real authentic beings once again after all this programming.

Jesse 47:57

Yes, yes, and yes. If you strip away the common association with theater uh and performance, if you take away entertainment, just throw it out the window. What is theater? These are healing tools. They're instruments to heal the heart. I mean I love that. That's what they are. That's what they are. That's the alchemy of it. But we're so caught up in the surface association of performance and theater. And I it's understandable. I mean, you get a guy from Juilliard coming and doing a workshop saying, all right, I want to every we're gonna we're gonna work on communication presentation. Already it's like, oh gosh, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work at a Juilliard level. I mean, what the hell would that that means? No, you're gonna work at your level, and we're gonna work with one of the greatest tools there is to allow you to be an amazing communicator. I think everybody, I think there are, you know, there's an argument. Well, are some people just born great communicators? Maybe. I'm not here to debate, but I think most people, I really believe it, because I've seen it. I I've seen people like that, you know, just you know, locked up, you know, prisoners in their own everything coming into seminars and workshops. I wouldn't necessarily say that they're ready for you know the to do Hamlet, uh Shakespeare in the park, but but they're really great communicators. Well that element of being able to remove judgment and and and and in terms of creating a space, yeah, you're absolutely right. I can't I can't make you feel or do anything, but I do believe a good teacher like yourself, Claire, um, and the the the great ones who are out there, they can create awe. The feeling of awe, they can make a student get really curious about their life, they can create a sense of play that allows people to go, you know, shit. What else could this possibly be? What else could this possibly be? And when you get yourself to that place, shit, man. Um the ground is fertile for change.

Claire 50:16

Well, and I keep um going back to what you said a moment ago about you know, tools to heal the heart. And I was and I had the image of you working in the prisons, you know, and and bringing the masks uh to the inmates, you know, and then they just naturally start to play. They just naturally start to, you know, and and I I remember back to mask class when we were in school. Um, I I enjoyed it, but I was always a little bit afraid in there because because there's nowhere to hide. And here's another paradox, right? You've got a mask on and you are more naked than you've ever been. You can't hide. You want to try to hide, and you see all the strategies, you see all the ways that people try to hide, right?

Jesse 50:57

Try to um that's interesting though, Claire, because yes, that's true, but the mask work is also where I felt like I didn't have to expose myself, and yet I was. I just felt comfortable using this tool, this medium.

Claire 51:12

Yeah.

Jesse 51:13

I apologize.

Claire 51:14

No, no, no, no, no. I mean, what I think that's really interesting. Where where you felt safe, uh safer because you you had the mask, I felt more exposed because of the mask, and I felt more, and I think it that has to do with our, you know, the patterns that we use, our particular, you know, the patterns from our psyches, you know, the ways that we strategize, the ways that we negotiate with life, you know, to try to feel better, right? Because the thing is we don't feel good. That's the reason, right? I mean, I don't care. I was the smiliest person, you know, it didn't mean that I was um okay inside, you know. So my particular uh discomfort with the mask was that I I couldn't I couldn't hide. It's such a weird paradox. Um, and you know, earlier this season, uh great clown joined me here in the gray space, uh, Annie, go to Mokenam. She uh she's she's a clown and she teaches clown and and she she brought her red nose and she's she said that she called the red nose the smallest mask in the world. Right. Right. And we had a fascinating uh in-depth conversation about this very thing, you know, like what does it do? And and and you're right. I mean, these are all tools to heal the heart if we will let them, if we will allow ourselves to be opened up by them.

Jesse 52:45

Um the operative word allow.

Claire 52:48

Yeah.

Jesse 52:49

That's such a powerful word in all of its implications to just allow. And again, it comes back to the numero target, freeing yourself of judgment, the single greatest roadblock there is to being a great human being, a great actor, a great lawyer. I'm I'm I'm absolutely convinced of it. Um start there. And then, yeah, and getting yourself to the place of allowing and awe, and it's so easy to say for me to sit here and say when when I'm not the men and women that I work with who are uh are living unspeakable tragedies. Uh people ask me all the time, how are you able to do what you do day after day after day? Not to say that it isn't tough. I mean, if I'm dealing with children, um that's always tough. But you know, I live in other people's tragedies. And and and my answer is I I don't see them as their tragedies. I'm inspired by them. I'm I'm I'm I'm removing my judgment of I'm not literally not seeing somebody as their pain because if if if all they were were their pain, most of them probably wouldn't even be here talking to me. So that's making that radical shift into awe. And then when you can get yourself to that place where you can be quiet enough in a fleeting moment and ask yourself, maybe there's something else going on here. Maybe I just I'm not supposed to know what the hell this is all about right now. Maybe if I can just get curious enough to allow whatever it is that I want to call my source, my higher power, whatever that is, to guide me to the next place when I am freaking clueless, um maybe I can do that. And that that is making a shift that is um to me is a miracle. It really, it really is. And you know, these four steps, Claire, they they um they go very, very deep for me. They really do. Uh I I I am I am I I I am a God guy, I'm not a religious person, but I have my own understanding of my own higher higher power. And so what I will often do as a as a as a practice um is I take those four steps and I throw it on me. And I imagine this was an exercise that I actually started doing with when I was working with therapists a while ago, um, helping them help their clients tell their stories. And I'll take those four steps, and I'm imagining that I'm my higher power. I am Jesse's higher power. Who am I talking to? I'm talking to Jesse. What do I want? I want him to get his head out of his ass. You know, remember who he is. Just remember who you are. What's getting in the way of what I want? Well, he's not listening to me. He's trying to run the show. He's trying to produce a result, he's trying to be clever. What changes? He actually listens to me. He remembers who he is.

Claire 56:16

It's a really interesting way to tap into your higher guidance. You know, I find myself doing the same thing, talking to myself. If I if I get into a tough spot inside my mind, you know, I I started doing that. I started talking to myself, talking myself through it. Um, and and yeah, having a bit of a dialogue. I can see how that would be very, very useful.

Jesse 56:39

Yeah, because what I'm doing is, and you know, I I've heard the R, well, you know, you can justify anything if you're pretending it's God talking to you. Oh, yeah, sure. You know, maybe run it by a closed-mouth, understanding friend. Um, but it is it is um what you're doing, the goal is to be able to have a dialogue with your pain, to get curious with your pain, to rewire your brain around the pain. I'm just getting curious. Forget about having a solution, just getting curious with it. Yeah, and yeah, again, it's so easy. This is why I teach what I need to learn. Uh this this work requires radical humility, which means you gotta be teachable. I could sit here and then two seconds after I'm off the podcast, just life takes a cosmic dump on me, you know. I'll be like, Yeah, right. I sounded really good on Claire's show, but you know, sheesh, I gotta back it up.

Claire 57:37

Um so yeah, so I know that moment. I mean, yeah, for sure.

Jesse 57:45

Do all this work so you can make these these days, these, these spiritual bank deposits so that you can make a huge withdrawal if and when you need to. Yeah.

Embrace The Suck And Find Truth

Claire 57:55

You know, something you said earlier uh got me thinking about the um, you know, one of the ways these uh tools of the stage, you know, which are really just tools of life, you know, um how how that can dismantle the uh artificial construct of the power structures, you know, that we've been under for so long. And and you know, because I was talking about um recently, you know, the the files, okay, for the those files, the Epstein files and all of that stuff, you know, and when you realize that the entire world has been held hostage and all of these people across the world have been held hostage through blackmail, right? Um because they participate in the dark funding mechanisms that make the that are the real economy of extraction on this planet, um, you realize that the whole thing can only operate because of shame, right? Because of guilt, because of the fear of judgment. It can only operate successfully because so many people are so afraid uh to be to to have the mask ripped off of them, you know. Um, and so this is like the this is the kind of work that heals the world, you know. Um if you have nothing to hide anymore, if you're not afraid to be seen anymore, then you know, nobody's got anything on you, in quotes. It it this is deceptively simple, but uh, you know, I think it's such a an incredibly powerful tool. And every time I'm working with somebody, it like I said, it comes back down to the same, the same basic principles over and over. Can you be okay with yourself? Yeah, can you tolerate your own company? I mean for a lot of people, going inside is not a safe place, you know. They they get attacked by themselves, you know, by this internalized voice of judgment right away.

Jesse 1:00:00

Yeah, yeah. It's it's a killer, it really is. Um and you know, you again, we were talking about this in the beginning of the conversation. The goal isn't necessarily to overcome the judgment. Because I don't know if you really can. It's like overcoming ego, or I mean, I think you could bypass it or you can transcend it for brief periods of time, maybe longer. But isn't for me, the goal is not also to remove the ego because I don't know if you actually can. It's how you work with it, how you use it as a dance partner, and how you get how you get curious with it. Um going back to theater days, I was doing a one-man show. I don't remember what the what the what the show was. Um but you know, if you're if if you're struggling, you can't really blame it on anybody because just you on stage. But the director, he puts his hand on my shoulder five minutes before I'm about to go on, and he says, Jesse, your struggle on stage is our gift. It never feels like that to the man or the woman in the arena, but the struggle is the gift, and that that always resonated with me because that's what people want to see. And we spend so much of our time, it's gotta be perfect, gotta be polished, credibility is based upon this, and uh bump bum bump bump bump uh uh no man, it's about the struggle and one of the uh the the original titles for my second book with uh with trial guides, which they they shot down wisely. So I was that was gonna be the that was the working title for this was the working title for a while, but I end up using this line all the time, and I steal this line from the Navy SEALs, embrace the suck. Oh embrace the suck, not tiptoe around the suck. Embrace it. That's what gives you your credibility, that's what gives you your authenticity.

Claire 1:02:07

Well, that's uh that's a key point right there. I mean, embrace the suck. And other and or you know, I would, in my language, I would say, you know, welcome the uh welcome whatever it is that's coming up right now, no matter how embarrassing, no matter how, you know, like um I was working with an acting student um the other day, and and we were in dialogue about something, and suddenly the phone rang in the room where she was, and and someone in her household crossed through to answer the phone, and she was in agony about it. She was like, I'm sorry, I'm oh god, you know, like don't don't and and and I said, I said, okay, okay, this moment right here, this moment right here, this is a great moment. Let it be, let it happen, welcome it. I said, There's nothing wrong, nothing is wrong. Let it in, let it in, like let it be part of what you're doing, like embrace it, weave it in, braid it in.

Jesse 1:03:04

One of the cardinal rules of improvisation, yes, and you're no buts. I mean, this is really this is life 101. It really is, it is, and it it exactly, you're absolutely right. It's a great point because in that moment where she had the most judgment, that's probably where she be she was the most real incredible. I want to see more of that. I I'm always telling lawyers, look for the accidents, look for them because they're real and humanizing. Because what's the greatest bias that they have the jurors have in the courtroom next to your your your your your witness? It's you. So if you're up there perfect, polished, and manicured, give me a freaking break. Be real, stumble, look for the accident. I'm struggling with this. I'll have lawyers stand up and say, I'm struggling, or I'm afraid. It was the fear exercise, though. I think we learned in at Juilliard as well. I'm standing up and you stand up and you face your listeners, I'm afraid, and you go through everything under the sun. John sticks. Yeah, John sticks. He would stand, have you stand up and say, I'm afraid of filling the blank. I'm afraid of the way people are looking at me. I'm afraid that I have body odor. I'm afraid of just because, and the idea was to diffuse the judgment. Yeah, yeah.

Claire 1:04:22

I completely forgot about that exercise. That is so incredibly valuable. Like, just name it, name the fear, right? Like, even when we get together to like start a podcast, you know, there's this, there's still this little part of us that's like, you know, I need to make sure I I cover the right things and I say the right things, I need to make sure that I'm articulate. I need to, you know, I want to ask the right questions, I want to, you know, provide the best space. And of course, these are all, you know, that's part of having high standards and you know, um striving for excellence in what you do, not perfection, excellence, that's a different thing, you know, but um, you know, these insecurities come up, and sometimes if we don't, if we're not conscious of them as they're arising and we try to, you know, historically we kind of are into suppression, most of us, right? Or projection. But if we, you know, have enough awareness and enough consciousness to embrace the suck, you know, to welcome these things as they're coming up, they can actually enliven the experience, make us more alive, right?

Jesse 1:05:27

Imagine if that if that's what you learned like at an early age. Listen, if you want to go out there, you've got you've got to stumble, you've got to fail, and you've got to let people in on it. And and if that just became the accepted practice of great communication and authenticity.

Claire 1:05:41

Well, let's decree that it is so. Decree that it is so, Jesse.

Jesse 1:05:46

I decree that it is so, and so it is. But listen, I tell this to people all the time. This is like my line, and I try to back it up, not just with lawyers, but because 90% of who I work with are attorneys and witnesses. Um, every workshop you go to, if you've had any, if you even stuck your pinky toe in theater, it's a theater experience. I use the lessons of the stage to be able to do the work that we need to do to get the big verdicts in in the courtroom. But I say that that that this is my this is this is my line. And I I say at the beginning of the workshop where when people go, God, it sounds good, but what the hell does that mean and even look like? And hopefully at the end of the workshop, I say it again. They're like, Oh yeah. Holy crap, I really, really get what you're saying now, dude. The theater is a safe place to be dangerous. Yeah, the courtroom is a dangerous place to be safe. Because your credibility is not based upon being careful. No, surrey. Just the opposite. Because the jurors are gonna think you're either full of it or not. You know that you could put on your best case and you can workshop it and focus group it and hire all the weirdo experts like me under the sun and and and still get defensed. You know this. I'm not telling any lawyer what they don't already know. But so if that's the case, if that's the truth, if that's the reality, then why would you want to spend a second being careful? But you don't have to be a lawyer to live like this. You don't.

Claire 1:07:17

Exactly. That's what I was gonna say.

Jesse 1:07:19

No, this is for all of us, all the world's a freaking stage. What are we doing on it?

Sovereignty, Shame, And Power

Claire 1:07:26

No more evident than now, right? This is I I think this is a very liberating message for everyone right now. The world is a dangerous place to be safe, right? You you the nothing is what it seems, nothing is what it has appeared to be. We've been on stage, the world is in fact a stage, and all the men and women merely players, all the people that you see out there, you know, uh on screens and on the world stage, they are literally players. And um, so you we've got nothing to lose, right? Because most people have already, you know, lost everything in a way, you know, and and and so uh it's a dangerous place to be safe now. You you can't be safe anymore, you won't be safe anymore. The only way to be safe is to totally surrender your sovereignty, and that and that's a false safety because it doesn't work, right? You you we are compelled now to step into our power, to step into you know our true nature, which is sovereign. And that and that simply means that you know you're you're already enough as you are. You don't have to justify your existence. You didn't come here to be born on this planet so that you could get a job and work and pay for things. That is a totally artificial construct. And, you know, we're here to remember who we are, and to and part of remembering who you are is letting go of all of those obstacles, you know, all of those judgments, all of those false selves that are masquerading as you.

Jesse 1:09:07

I would only amend that to instead of letting go. I would use those obstacles, I would use those struggles. I would use, I would dialogue with them. And then in the process, paradoxically, they may magically just go away on their own.

Claire 1:09:23

Yes, I think that's a very valid way of looking at it. And and that is what the alchemization process is. It has to come up, right? It when you don't, you can't let it go if you haven't let it come up, right? You can't let it go if you haven't been able to see it and and and work with it in front of you. If you're afraid to be in the same space as it, you can't let it go, right? It has to come up, it has to present itself as the adversary, as the whatever you know, role it's playing, whatever mask it's wearing. Um, but yes, precisely what you said.

Jesse 1:09:57

And I, you know, I lean on a lot of the language in in recovery and whatever ideas that people have about recovery, taking the debate out of it. But it in in in the 12 steps, you've got the the six set, the the sixth step, which is about all about removing uh these defects of character. And they're they're the white knuckling, bludgeoning yourself approach doesn't work for a lot of people. It might work for other, you know. I've got to remove this, I've got to remove this, I've got to remove this. This is this is this is killing my relationships, mainly with the man or the woman in the mirror, and and and I got it. Well, okay, good luck with that. Um, or trust in a power that is greater than yourself to help you uh remove these roadblocks when they're ready to be removed. And how I interpret that is well, maybe we can just get curious with them. Maybe they're not supposed to go away. Maybe this thing that I want to just rip out of me because it's hurting other people. Well, yeah, sure. If it's hurting other people, if it's physically creating harm or creating such a toxic thing, yeah, of course you want to have it be removed, but maybe look at it in a different lens. And maybe it's not, it's not something that needs to just be ripped out of you like a freaking boil. Um, that's judgment. That's judgment.

Claire 1:11:21

Yeah, absolutely. And what you what you resist uh persists, and what you fight against, you know, fights harder back at you. So, you know, that's not gonna work, right? There is a kind of dissolution that happens when your own space becomes v vast enough to compass uh everything that's in there, and you realize, you know, whether you call it a higher power or your inner being or or whatever it is, you know, it is capable, it is it is capable of metabolizing anything at all. Uh, and if you, you know, um, yeah, if you're willing to like let it in the room with you and you realize you're not gonna die, you know, you can actually feel feel it, sense it, let it be activated in your body. Um, that's another thing I noticed about your your language is very much uh rooted in embodiment too. So um, yeah, you know, then then the monster, the the thing that looks so monstrous transforms and and um, you know, and the ego we were talking about. Um yeah, the ego as an interface, it's an interface with reality, you know, and it doesn't have to if you don't know anything else beyond it, if you think that's what you are, then it's a problem. But if you know that's not what you are, you know, it's then it's not a problem anymore, and you kind of get to keep it as a pet.

Jesse 1:12:40

Just said when you know that that's not what you are, yeah, yeah. I I hear that from a lot of people. I don't have any idea who the heck I am, but I know what I'm not. I know what I'm not. And you know, I know we're we're getting close to wrapping it up here, but I I if we come back to the mask work, uh, there's full circle back to early days at at the jail yard, um uh working with with Pierre. There was the character mask, and then you know there's the neutral mask. The mask that, and this is obviously not the kind we we we we worked with, but this is just a three-dollar party mask. I got people all over the country wearing these damn things. They're wonderful, it's a wonderful teaching tool. But it it can also be pretty intimidating. Um, talk about exposing. I mean, now you really have nothing to hide behind. No words, no voice, no features. You just got an eyes, a nose, and and a and a mouth. And I use of uh the the neutral mask for a lot of the work that I do in nonverbal communication. When you don't have this to work on, then you've got to have the embodiment of the emotional state. And it's a I mean, it's a wonderful, powerful exercise, one of the most powerful tools I know to communicate nonverbal. But if we're looking to go deeper into the personal transformation work like we're talking about, what is the purpose of the neutral mask? It's about being able to look at your life as the compassionate witness. And when you are able to get yourself to that place where you are the compassionate witness to your life. I mean, if if if I'm looking doing a role reversal and I'm imagining that this is Jesse in the midst of shame, in the midst of judgment, um, and I go the four-step work, now I'm able to literally objectify my own experience, was in it, which is an incredibly healing thing to do when you are in trauma, when you have a mountain of shame on you. And if I can get myself to the and a lot of uh work, they they call it being the watcher. Um you know, the transcendental meditation teaches that that allowing place to let the thoughts just come, just but be be a witness to it.

Claire 1:15:00

Yeah.

Jesse 1:15:00

Oh my God. I mean, listen, I I'd love to sit here and and and brag and say, I'm in that state all the time. No way. But I'm in that state a lot more today than I was a number of years ago. Um it is incredibly liberating. When I can step back and go, you know, about two years ago, I would have judged the hell out of this. I would have taken it and I would have ran it, I would have beaten it to the ground, and and and I would have I would have been absolutely right, and everybody would have agreed that I would have right. But wouldn't it have been great if I would have stepped back and been making the choice to say I'd rather be loving than right? You know, when I'm the watcher, I can watch Jesse in this place not reacting. I could be in the pause, um, I can listen, radically listen. So yeah, there is there is there are masks within the mask, but I do think the ultimate goal of everything we're talking about, when you are a the compassionate witness to your own life, the compassionate witness, not just the witness like I'm watching a freaking train wreck, but I'm a compassionate witness when I'm holding space like a great teacher, a great parent does with their child. You know, it's it's um the the the barriers and the boundaries just break down, and then you're living a life no longer based upon what somebody else um has to give you. Uh you're no longer living, um you're no longer putting your power in other people's hands, and that is true power.

Neutral Mask And Compassionate Witness

Jesse 1:16:36

Yeah.

Claire 1:16:37

That's very well expressed. Very well expressed. And uh yeah, the tools of the of the stage are the tools to heal the heart. That's uh a beautiful new light on uh on everything we learned at Juilliard and uh and the truth of it, the essence the essence of it.

Jesse 1:16:56

Um, you know, I I if you would have told me intellectually that these tools or what I like to call the lessons from the stage were about the tools to the heart and to free the heart, and they were about healing and connection and transforming lives. Maybe intellectually I would have said, yeah, you know, sure, whatever, but just make me the next Marlon Brando.

Claire 1:17:18

Yeah.

Jesse 1:17:19

But it was working with inmates and addicts that I really got to see what I'd learned years ago at Juilliard. Now in the hands of people who could care less about acting and Juilliard and Flips and the Glam and Holly and Academy Awards. They were broken, they were in pain, and something needed to change in their life yesterday. Then I went, oh my God. The reality is I'm a student to this stuff. I had no idea how deep this work actually really went. Because it is, it is, it is absolutely about human connection.

Claire 1:17:55

Wow, Jesse. Thank you so much. I know we're both on a schedule today, but it's been really a joy to have you here and to uh you know talk shop.

Jesse 1:18:05

Uh you for helping for allowing me to be in your in your space, your gray space.

Claire 1:18:10

This is a well, it's been it was a real pleasure. Well, I know we'll we'll talk again soon, uh, and I'll say uh goodbye for now. Thank you. Oh, thanks, Jesse. That conversation had so many uh quotes in it that I want to tattoo somewhere. Like she is not her pain. And embrace the suck. And and your struggle is the gift, right? It's not that we strive to struggle, it's that, you know, we don't have to hide the struggles that we are in. We don't have to be ashamed of that stuff, you know. That is what makes us human. But if there's one thread here that I want to leave people with, it's this dropping of the mask, you know. This has been so powerful in my own life. And and from my own experience, I know it's not about becoming someone new. It is really about just finally letting people see you, right? Allowing yourself to be seen in your humanity. It doesn't have to be perfect, right? That is how we feel connected to one another when we when we see that that that struggle, you know, when we're we all have things to overcome, right? I mean, we all have things to metabolize, to alchemize. So Jesse's work reminds us that judgment, you know, the fear of it, the weight of it is often, you know, the only thing that's standing between us and the truth that we're capable of telling, of being. And, you know, whether you're standing in front of a jury or an audience or just standing in front of the mirror, the it's the same invitation, which is to stop performing the victim, right, of your story and to start showing up as the person who is endeavoring. Endeavoring, right? Endeavoring is, I like to use that word more than trying, I guess, because um endeavoring implies that we're on a journey and we are doing our very best, right? Sometimes when we say I'm gonna try, it's it's kind of our way of saying that we can't, that we're not really gonna do it, you know, that we don't believe that we can. But if we're endeavoring, we are endeavoring towards something. We are in the work. We are in the work. It's actually happening. Uh, it was uh great to get together with my friend Jesse again. I always um just really enjoy our conversations. You know, he's one of those friends that you can just talk to for hours. Um, so if you want to learn more about Jesse and his work with Tell the Winning Story, um, I have, of course, all the links in the show notes ready for you. Thank you so much for spending time with me uh here in the Grace Space. Uh, I'll see you soon once again. And

Final Takeaways And Walk In Grace

Claire 1:21:08

meanwhile, you know what to do. Walk in grace. You've been listening to the Grace Space. To amplify this field, you're welcome to like, subscribe, or share.

Jesse 1:21:21

Thank you.